TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
this is what I mean about language. I don't know how you can even draw that conclusion.
She is more conscious of the need for social revolution, than the BNP member.
Life after the SWP?
- Thread starter chilango
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She is more conscious of the need for social revolution, than the BNP member.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
I found that six pages back, but you said you didn't want to discuss it again, so I didn't.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
No I'm not. The extreme right do want a social revolution, that's kind of the point of it.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I found that six pages back, but you said you didn't want to discuss it again, so I didn't.
Good.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
"it's not the fact that people might have reactionary ideas or be more or less informed about stuff, " than frog woman.
It is a fact that some people have more reactionary ideas than you, and some are less informed about stuff. I meet them every day . Y
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
And some people are less informed AND have fewer reactionary ideas. And some people have ideas that are reactionary and don't even realise it. Like me. Like anyone here.
october_lost
It's not hip any more...
Surely, they want a political revolution. Social revolution implies a fundamental shakeup of the class system. I thought implicitly words like progressive, social revolution, reactionary etc were part of leftist lexicon, therefore can't be used sparingly to praise the far-right.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
fair point well made. I will rephrase.
She is more conscious of the need for ********** social revolution, than the BNP member.
ps. Put your own label in for the type of social revolution to a classless and more democratic society that you would like.
PPS.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
not denying that.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
it is the fact, as I said earlier, that the SWP would agree with every word in that post, as Chilango seem to accept, that undermines the picture painted on here of vanguardism SWP style.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
they (mostly) say they want a change to a type of society where ones position is based on race/nationality rather than by class.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
it is the fact, as I said earlier, that the SWP would agree with every word in that post, as Chilango seem to accept, that undermines the picture painted on here of vanguardism SWP style.
it doesn't.
It suggests that the SWP, like the CofE, will present itself to be all things for all people.
The question is (or rather was) how many of the SWP's members are actually wishy washy liberals floating from pole to pole and how many are secret Leninists?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
when you are talking about people's awareness of the need for progressive social revolution, would you feel more comfortable if the SWP said more OR less rather than higher and lower levels of consciousness?
I know the situation is more complicated than this. I've already said, I've not met any seasoned member of the SWP who would not agree with your post above. does that not intrigue you? Do you think it's a lie?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
secret? Stated Leninists. Their interpretation of Lenin, which seems to disagree with some people on here. Fair enough, but they clearly state what their interpretation is in thousands and thousands of articles.I've given you an article, so you find me an article that contradicts that. You won't. Which then undermines your argument they have many faces.
I'm not the cleverest man in the world, but I could see they had one line that ran through every issue from feminism , to imperialism. From gay rights to racism.
PS.I'm not suggesting for one minute they are right. I wouldn't know whether they are right or wrong. I just know that all their arguments fitted together logically , without contradiction, and looked nothing like the picture of Vanguardism painted on here.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I've given you an article, so you find me an article that contradicts that. You won't. Which then undermines your argument they have many faces.
I'm not the cleverest man in the world, but I could see they had one line that ran through every issue from feminism , to imperialism. From gay rights to racism.
PS.I'm not suggesting for one minute they are right. I wouldn't know whether they are right or wrong. I just know that all their arguments fitted together logically , without contradiction, and looked nothing like the picture of Vanguardism painted on here.
so they're not basically the same as anarchists then?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
what's an anarchist?
Anarchists want to achieve anarchism/communism so do the SWP/ Leninists.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
do you have an article that contradicts that article?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
have you ever read the SWP's rejection of Che Guevara's model of the Vanguard party? And Tony Cliff, permanent revolution deflected?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
their words and their deeds match perfectly. They state clearly so anyone could understand what they want to achieve, and how they want to achieve it. It's all there in black-and-white for you to accept or reject.
What you cant do is paint a completely different picture, and say that is what they say.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
well try reading them. What's the problem?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
why should I read them? what would change?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
and that is crap anyway. How can the ordinary members I know who have been in the party for 30 or 40 years, have an understanding of the party, words, that doesn't match their experience of the party?
You know, I don't understand the politics of you and butchers, but I don't resort to calling you liars and two-faced. That's not political argument. I accept, you are completely genuine the pair of you.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
well the Che Guevara, Chinese Communist Party model of the Vanguard party, is in a lot of ways similar to the picture painted on here of the SWP Vanguard party. And so they completely debunk that type of Vanguard party, from their own perspective.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I'm not calling anyone a "liar".
I'm suggesting, based upon my own experiences, that the deeds of the SWP do not always match the words that you choose to quote here.
...and, of course, the SWP are not the only organisation you could say this about.
Red Storm
M14
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Fine.
I'm not bothered, ultimately, if the behaviour that characterises groups such as the SWP is not Vanguardist in that sense.
That doesn't really matter.
The fundamental point is that we have an organisation of self-appointed revolutionaries intervening in struggle with a blueprint and a script and the belief that they know best.
You have quoted some Party texts that appear to deny that. But my experience is as I describe.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
RMP3?
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