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Labour's proposed local government re-organisation

Can't be arsed to read it all but I bet it's not going to be proper devolution, i.e. law-making and tax-raising powers. So many other countries have those powers at local or regional level but we end up with these wet 'combined authorities' and city mayors who are basically just glorified managers of whatever budget Westminster sees fit to give them.
 
Sounds like a good idea to me, but the devil will be in the detail.

Finally doing away with tiers of councils* - county + borough or district councils - is a good idea, no one around here seems to know which council does what, mind you it is a bit mad, e.g. lower tier councils are responsible for collecting waste & recycling, and the county council responsible for disposing of it. Lower tier councils are responsible for off-street parking, county council for on-street parking, etc.

* OK, some also have Parish councils, which I have mixed feelings about, here it does do some nice things in the village, but OTOH there's never elections, because not enough candidates come forward, so everyone is appointed, then they 'co-op' other people to fill vacant seats, which makes me fearful when leaving the pub, in case I get press-ganged into it, wake up with a hangover and a Parish councillor job - frigging nightmare! :D
 
Can't be arsed to read it all but I bet it's not going to be proper devolution, i.e. law-making and tax-raising powers. So many other countries have those powers at local or regional level but we end up with these wet 'combined authorities' and city mayors who are basically just glorified managers of whatever budget Westminster sees fit to give them.
Adam Boulton has written something similar for Sky News. There will still be Westminster strings attached.
 
Adam Boulton has written something similar for Sky News. There will still be Westminster strings attached.
As I suspected, it's all going to be piss-weak then. I think English regions should have law-making and tax-raising powers similar to Wales, if you wanted to bring us into line with the devolution of other major countries like Germany, Spain, United States. But fat chance of that from this power-hungry mob. So at best this will make more efficient the routes by which they dole out their insufficient funds, at worst it will make those routes less efficient, because we all know that 'simplifying' managerial layers often results in more of a mess than before.
 

These re-releases seem to happen more and more quickly as I get older. The old regional assemblies were only abolished in the late noughties.

Admittedly, they were of limited use as they had no actual powers, but they enabled councils to avoid making big decisions that would never work because of some other decision made in the neighbouring county/district.
 
Can't be arsed to read it all but I bet it's not going to be proper devolution, i.e. law-making and tax-raising powers. So many other countries have those powers at local or regional level but we end up with these wet 'combined authorities' and city mayors who are basically just glorified managers of whatever budget Westminster sees fit to give them.

The downside to that is the usual one: the areas most in need of services and investment are often those whose residents are least able to pay for them.

Although economic deprivation is (was?) a factor in the calculation of the standard spending assessment, I don't think it ever went far enough to make a significant difference. East Sussex still seems to be a lot more deprived than West Sussex, for example. Mind you, that might be because E Sussex no longer gets any regeneration money from the EU.
 
East Sussex still seems to be a lot more deprived than West Sussex, for example.

Is that the case now?

The more rural council areas in both counties are fairly 'well to do', for want of a better description.

There's plenty of deprived areas in West Sussex towns, such as Crawley, Bognor, Littlehampton, Shoreham, Southwick and Worthing, it's not all Chichester and Horsham over here.

Whereas, excluding Brighton & Hove as it no longer comes under East Sussex County Council, you've only got Eastbourne and Hastings with more deprived areas.
 
Finally doing away with tiers of councils* - county + borough or district councils - is a good idea, no one around here seems to know which council does what, mind you it is a bit mad, e.g. lower tier councils are responsible for collecting waste & recycling, and the county council responsible for disposing of it. Lower tier councils are responsible for off-street parking, county council for on-street parking, etc.

It's exactly that sort of thing that did my head in when I first started working at a county council. It seemed bonkers, and it didn't seem any less so when my boss told me that if you buy a pie that's gone off, it's a matter for the district/borough council (environmental health), but if it doesn't meet the prescribed standard for its contents, it's a matter for the county (trading standards).
 
It's exactly that sort of thing that did my head in when I first started working at a county council. It seemed bonkers, and it didn't seem any less so when my boss told me that if you buy a pie that's gone off, it's a matter for the district/borough council (environmental health), but if it doesn't meet the prescribed standard for its contents, it's a matter for the county (trading standards).

When I lived in Somerset, I had a short term contract to promote recycling with a not-for-profit called the 'Recycling Consortium', contracted by the 'Somerset Waste Partnership', representing the county council and five district/borough councils, the first meeting I attended involved people from the RC, SWP and all 6 councils, I found it a mind blowing waste of resources and money TBH.
 
Is that the case now?

The more rural council areas in both counties are fairly 'well to do', for want of a better description.

There's plenty of deprived areas in West Sussex towns, such as Crawley, Bognor, Littlehampton, Shoreham, Southwick and Worthing, it's not all Chichester and Horsham over here.

Whereas, excluding Brighton & Hove as it no longer comes under East Sussex County Council, you've only got Eastbourne and Hastings with more deprived areas.

Hastings consistently appears in the top 20 most deprived towns in England. While there are pockets of deprivation in most Sussex coastal towns, it's nothing like the level that it is in Hastings. There are other E Sussex towns where there are significant pockets of deprivation, notably (but not solely) in Newhaven and Hailsham, both of which had specific EU funding to address the economic issues. And East Sussex generally is a lot less affluent than West Sussex.

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I think the difference between the two is probably one of income distribution. Anecdata, but I was told a few years ago that Milland, a West Sussex village, had the highest per capita income of anywhere in the UK outside of London. And West Sussex is just posher: you have 2 dukes and at least one viscount, the best East Sussex can manage is 2 viscounts.*

* not the biscuits!
 
Just been reading the local news take for East Anglia, merging Norfolk and Suffolk seems a terrible idea from a Suffolk perspective, removing powers rather than keeping them (Norfolk being broadly the dominant county). Plus it's completely mad for Labour as it'll near enough guarantee a Tory running things for Ipswich and Norwich.
 
Is that the case now?

The more rural council areas in both counties are fairly 'well to do', for want of a better description.

There's plenty of deprived areas in West Sussex towns, such as Crawley, Bognor, Littlehampton, Shoreham, Southwick and Worthing, it's not all Chichester and Horsham over here.

Whereas, excluding Brighton & Hove as it no longer comes under East Sussex County Council, you've only got Eastbourne and Hastings with more deprived areas.
Only Eastbourne and Hastings? How about Newhaven, Peacehaven, Normans Bay, Pevensey Bay, Hailsham, Sidley, Polegate, St Leonards and all that bit around Pett Level. Trailer parks after trailer parks and severe poverty and massive mental health and substance abuse issues compounded by corruption. Exceptionally bad hospitals in Eastbourne (271st out of 271 in learning from mistakes) and the scandal hit Royal Sussex (yes I know it's in Brighton but also serves us here in East Sussex).
 
Just been reading the local news take for East Anglia, merging Norfolk and Suffolk seems a terrible idea from a Suffolk perspective, removing powers rather than keeping them (Norfolk being broadly the dominant county). Plus it's completely mad for Labour as it'll near enough guarantee a Tory running things for Ipswich and Norwich.

I'm still trying to digest much of this, but yes - on purely party political lines, this seems incredibly daft for the labour party, as a lot of the existing labour held towns / cities will get submerged in to a much more tory shire area that will become at best politically marginal.

which was an unspoken point when the major government started buggering about with it all in the 90s, and labour failed to call out at the time.
 
Hastings consistently appears in the top 20 most deprived towns in England. While there are pockets of deprivation in most Sussex coastal towns, it's nothing like the level that it is in Hastings. There are other E Sussex towns where there are significant pockets of deprivation, notably (but not solely) in Newhaven and Hailsham, both of which had specific EU funding to address the economic issues. And East Sussex generally is a lot less affluent than West Sussex.

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View attachment 455168

I think the difference between the two is probably one of income distribution. Anecdata, but I was told a few years ago that Milland, a West Sussex village, had the highest per capita income of anywhere in the UK outside of London. And West Sussex is just posher: you have 2 dukes and at least one viscount, the best East Sussex can manage is 2 viscounts.*

* not the biscuits!
And then there is the conscious decision to place the dangerous incinerator in deprived Newhaven, in the fucking town itself. I'm surprised Lewes has lower salaries than Hastings and Eastbourne as it seems far posher and the council there spends far more on the infrastructure there than in Eastbourne in particular. Problems in Eastbourne are compounded by corruption, nepotism and general thieving. Police don't care.
 
Not sure if it's affected by this, but Oxford City Council is traditionally Labour/Green (not sure what its composition is now but for years there were no Tories at all), while the County Council is generally full of Tories. Given the County Council is responsible for things like roads, this causes quite a lot of issues. Never mind all the district councils in Oxfordshire that do whatever and also tend to be Tory or 'Independent' but Tory adjacent. (There was a proposal for an elected mayor years ago but it was rejected.)
 
I think this is broadly good news. Unitary councils make sense, and don't assume this is always based on the county council - eg in Cheshire they split it in half east and west when they went to unitaries.

On combined authorities / mayors, it's good that Labour are ending the hodge podge approach and making sure that every place is within such a system, and it's clear what powers are allocated for what reasons. And it's good that the Westminster handouts are going to be merged into a single pot allowing combined authorities to allocate it as they see fit rather than having to justify everything to Whitehall.

But yeah not enough tax raising powers and barely a word about public involvement / local neighbourhoods.
 
Greater Manchester has had this for years there's been some good interesting innovation, some positives and some disappointment. However, this , as will these new proposals, has taken place in a period of public sector austerity, cuts and 'value for money' and a reliance on the government to agree and fund some stuff upfront or allow the use of national silo budgets. This has led to false starts and false dawns.

The positives are in pooled budgets and drawing in partners wider than just the council.
 
i should state a possible vested interest in that i work for a council (it's a unitary, and not sure whether it will stay as is or get merged with another one) and live in a (different) small unitary council area.

overall, the whole thing gets a :hmm: from me. a lot will depend on the detail.

initial reaction is that this is a distraction from long term underfunding of councils, which is the real problem, not the structures or boundaries of councils as they are now.

and it's going to result in several years of uncertainty and sorting out and settling down, and a lot of money going in redundancy payments, office moves and so on. which will not help deal with the current problems.

i'm not convinced the 'confusion' between different tiers of council is that big a deal. i've lived and worked in areas with two tiers of council, and yes, some people might have to be told to ring the county / district if they phoned the wrong one, but don't think it's been a major issue. i agree that some county councils and (at least some) of their districts don't co-operate as well as they could, likewise some neighbouring councils don't co-operate as well as they could. having said that, councils having some shared services (e.g. particular specialists) is not uncommon, although arrangements like that can be fragile if one of the partner councils changes political colour and they want to do it differently.

what's local government for anyway? i broadly think things should be run and accountable at the most local level that's reasonable. the most local services being run by a parish council seems reasonable enough (arguably the london boroughs are too big for some services - the SDP or SLD or whatever the heck it was then did experiment with 'neighbourhood' level decisions involving the local ward councillors, but think the election of one NF or BNP councillor put the shits up them and they backed off from the idea in case one neighbourhood got another fascist councillor and therefore a majority) some things need to be run on a district level (at least), some things need a thought process beyond one district, some things (arguably too many) are managed at westminster government / whitehall level, a few things need international agreement and regulation.

too many things are in the hands of remote quangos - health in particular. policing is arguably more efficient with big multi-county police forces, but much less accountable, either with a police authority with members from multiple local councils, or with a pointless police commissioner.

do people want local councils? some people complain that councils are only managers of what whitehall says they can do, other people complain about 'postcode lottery' when they mean that different local councils have made different policy decisions.

arguably some boundaries (broadly unchanged since 1974, apart from the places that have so far got unitary councils, and the abolition of 'new' counties like Avon) don't always reflect current urban areas and communities. Reading is an example - what are now in effect the western / southern / eastern suburbs are in neighbouring council areas, Medway has a few suburbs that have been grafted on at the southern edge but are in administrative Kent, and so on.

Although some people haven't forgiven government for the 1974 changes (there's a few villages that got 'moved' from Yorkshire to Lancashire or vice versa for example) - and whatever you do, there are going to be boundaries somewhere and the potential for different councils / policies in the next street.

in berkshire, the county council just got abolished and all their functions deposited on the existing boroughs / districts which became unitaries, which arguably are too small to manage them well. and 15+ years on, some of them are just about getting the hang of them. some places now (and arguably under this proposal) will just have county (or artificial half county) councils which are arguably too remote to run the most local of services, and many councils with large areas (even the london boroughs, which themselves are the result of government mandated mergers in the 1960s) give the impression of favouring this town centre and neglecting that town centre.

merging several councils together will be politically bad for labour - towns and cities with labour councils will be submerged in to larger areas with more rural tory voters. As I said earlier, this looked like a deliberate but unspoken policy when the major government started introducing unitary councils after 1992 - the usual approach was 'take the labour voting big town out of the shire county so that the county council will be safely tory, and add a few suburbs and villages so that the 'urban' council will at least go marginal' - labour at the time didn't call them out on this.

and mixed feelings about the 'single funding pot' idea. on one hand, yes, whitehall is too prescriptive. and too much funding is based on councils having to compete with each other for it, which favours larger councils or councils with the resources (either in house or consultants) to prepare those bids. but i can see it leading to services used by smaller sections of communities and services that aren't seen as 'vote winners' being cut even more as a result.

and i'm also not that sure i'm fond of directly elected local mayors. we don't have a directly elected president / prime minister, i'm not sure i see any real benefits of a directly elected mayor over a 'leader of the council'

did i say :hmm: ?
 
i broadly think things should be run and accountable at the most local level that's reasonable. the most local services being run by a parish council seems reasonable enough
I used to think this and I still do in theory. But then I spent some time working for a small town council (equivalent to parish) and to be frank it was a joke. Toxic, lacking proper governance, poor systems etc. Plus there's an unfairness about some places (usually richer and more rural) benefiting from the extra funding associated with having a parish council. Public bodies need to be of a certain size to be functional, I think.
 
And then there is the conscious decision to place the dangerous incinerator in deprived Newhaven, in the fucking town itself. I'm surprised Lewes has lower salaries than Hastings and Eastbourne as it seems far posher and the council there spends far more on the infrastructure there than in Eastbourne in particular. Problems in Eastbourne are compounded by corruption, nepotism and general thieving. Police don't care.

That's for the whole of Lewes district, not just the town, so it includes the more deprived bits like Newhaven and Peacehaven.

I'm intrigued by the "corruption, nepotism and general thieving" in Eastbourne though. I had no idea Eastbourne was that exciting.
 
Sounds like a good idea to me, but the devil will be in the detail.

Finally doing away with tiers of councils* - county + borough or district councils - is a good idea, no one around here seems to know which council does what, mind you it is a bit mad, e.g. lower tier councils are responsible for collecting waste & recycling, and the county council responsible for disposing of it. Lower tier councils are responsible for off-street parking, county council for on-street parking, etc.

* OK, some also have Parish councils, which I have mixed feelings about, here it does do some nice things in the village, but OTOH there's never elections, because not enough candidates come forward, so everyone is appointed, then they 'co-op' other people to fill vacant seats, which makes me fearful when leaving the pub, in case I get press-ganged into it, wake up with a hangover and a Parish councillor job - frigging nightmare! :D

In the late Seventeenth Century Quakers in Croydon were elected by their peers to serve as town beer tasters. As they refused to take oath of allegiance to the King that taking in that role demanded, they would then be taken to court fined and jailed.
 
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