Labour leadership

[ViolentPanda]

Every time I've seen that over the last 25+ years, it's made me want to hunt down that Welsh class traitor and kneecap him.

 

[free spirit]

It gives the treasury a 'lever' not available to Tsakalotos, but Osborne does not control the degree to which he can use that lever.

So we are in a significantly different position?

No other country or countries can turn off the taps of currency / liquidity to UK banks in the way that the ECB did to Greece.

I take the point that the government has given much of that control to the bank of england, but the control still resides within the UK, it's still owned by the government, and it still works to a remit set by the chancellor and is answerable to the treasury select committee.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so in 2010 what forces were acting on us that meant we had no option but to implement austerity? How was this not a voluntary policy that the tories implemented due to their ideology?

You appear to have forgotten that the austerity narrative pervaded the pre-election maunderings of both Labour and the Lib-Deds too. All they promised was to sugar the pill/garnish the shit sandwich.

 

[brogdale]

So we are in a significantly different position?

No other country or countries can turn off the taps of currency / liquidity to UK banks in the way that the ECB did to Greece.

I take the point that the government has given much of that control to the bank of england, but the control still resides within the UK, it's still owned by the government, and it still works to a remit set by the chancellor and is answerable to the treasury select committee.

Neither could Carney operate without the tacit 'permission' of fincap.

 

[free spirit]

You appear to have forgotten that the austerity narrative pervaded the pre-election maunderings of both Labour and the Lib-Deds too. All they promised was to sugar the pill/garnish the shit sandwich.

not so much in 2010.

They were both favouring* continued growth promoting policies initially, with deficit reduction later in the parliament once the economy was back on track, which is pretty much basic Keynesian economics.

*in their pre-election public statements / manifestos at least.

 

[ViolentPanda]

it swept europe as a policy in 2010.

Prior to that there was no problem in addressing the global recession with massive levels of public sector borrowing.

Nope. Started in 2008, and had already gained traction/achieved hegemony by 2010. Some states did massive borrowing (US and France being prime examples), others went straight to "fiscal consolidation"(Brown, for example, started winding in government spending, although at nowhere near the speed that Osborne adopted).

 

[free spirit]

Neither could Carney operate without the tacit 'permission' of fincap.

but he doesn't need the German Finance ministers approval for QE or any other measures.

You seem to be dancing around the point to avoid agreeing with me.

 

[free spirit]

Nope. Started in 2008, and had already gained traction/achieved hegemony by 2010. Some states did massive borrowing (US and France being prime examples), others went straight to "fiscal consolidation"(Brown, for example, started winding in government spending, although at nowhere near the speed that Osborne adopted).

how the fuck did austerity start in 2008?

Spending rose significantly between 2008 and 2010.

 

[ViolentPanda]

not so much in 2010.

They were both favouring* continued growth promoting policies initially, with deficit reduction later in the parliament once the economy was back on track, which is pretty much basic Keynesian economics.

*in their pre-election public statements / manifestos at least.

And yet the emphasis from both was the inevitability of deficit reduction. Neither promoted any escape from or avoidance of it, because their neoliberalised ideologies and the "market" perspective it gave them made them view it as inevitable and necessary.
Take a look at the growth plans. They're anaemic. They would have possibly acted to deflect some of the rise in unemployment that Osborne's version of austerity caused, but they couldn't have acted as a sufficient stimulus, if we're talking in Keynesian terms.

 

[free spirit]

And yet the emphasis from both was the inevitability of deficit reduction. Neither promoted any escape from or avoidance of it, because their neoliberalised ideologies and the "market" perspective it gave them made them view it as inevitable and necessary.
Take a look at the growth plans. They're anaemic. They would have possibly acted to deflect some of the rise in unemployment that Osborne's version of austerity caused, but they couldn't have acted as a sufficient stimulus, if we're talking in Keynesian terms.

I'm not intending to defend either party's 2010 manifestos beyond the point already made, but what's your point?

How does this back up the assertion that these austerity policies in the UK weren't entered into voluntarily, that the UK government couldn't have taken alternative courses of action, that financial capital wouldn't have allowed it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

how the fuck did austerity start in 2008?

Spending rose significantly between 2008 and 2010.

Now compare to projected spending. Not just the year-to-years, but the medium term (3-5 year) projections too.
You may recall that Labour got "clobbered" for high spending in 2010. Projected spending between 2008 and 2010 was higher because projections of the state of the economic cycle were such that (outwith "the credit crunch") higher spending would have been eminently affordable. Unfortunately, the credit crunch made the cycle's wheels fall off.

 

[teqniq]

Jeremy Corbyn: only genuine Labour supporters should vote for next leader

The frontrunner in the Labour leadership election, Jeremy Corbyn, has said he only wants the support of “genuine Labour supporters” as he sought to dismiss calls for the party to shelve the contest over fears of an “infiltration” by hard-left activists.

John Mann, the Labour MP for Bassetlaw, has written to the party’s interim leader, Harriet Harman, to call for the election to be suspended until proper checks can be carried out on the tens of thousands of new members who have joined Labour since its election defeat in May.

Mann told Harman: “[The election] should be halted. It is becoming a farce with longstanding members … in danger of getting trumped by people who have opposed the Labour party and want to break it up – some of it is the Militant Tendency-types coming back in.”

He said: “It is pretty clear that what is happening amounts to infiltration of the Labour party.”...

 

[butchersapron]

Jeremy Corbyn: only genuine Labour supporters should vote for next leader

That means green party member free spirt who said this

I support the aims and values of the Labour Party, and I am not a supporter of any organisation opposed to it.

should not vote.

 

[brogdale]

but he doesn't need the German Finance ministers approval for QE or any other measures.

You seem to be dancing around the point to avoid agreeing with me.

What is it, exactly, that you want me to agree with?

 

[teqniq]

That means green party member free spirt who said this

I support the aims and values of the Labour Party, and I am not a supporter of any organisation opposed to it.

should not vote.

I am mainly enjoying the spectacle of the likes of Mann getting all vein-poppy over the prospect of Corbyn actually winning (however unlikely that may actually be). Pretty much anything that fucks off the Blairites is always good entertainment imo.

 

[butchersapron]

I am mainly enjoying the spectacle of the likes of Mann getting all vein-poppy over the prospect of Corbyn actually winning (however unlikely that may actually be). Pretty much anything that fucks off the Blairites is always good entertainment imo.

My father's house has many mansions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not intending to defend either party's 2010 manifestos beyond the point already made, but what's your point?

How does this back up the assertion that these austerity policies in the UK weren't entered into voluntarily, that the UK government couldn't have taken alternative courses of action, that financial capital wouldn't have allowed it?

It's simple.
1) If you're ideologically-predisposed to a particular view of the world (lets say "neoliberalism"), then you don't see alternatives, because the ambit of what your ideology allows you to see is narrowed.
2) If your governing structures and institutions are also pervaded by the same ideologies, proposals of alternatives will not be allowed to stand.
3) "The markets" have mechanisms to ensure compliance to their wishes - simple stuff like being able to influence your credit rating being the crudest but most effective mechanism.

The UK might have been able to take a stand if we had a political class independent of capitalism, but we don't. We instead have a political class indoctrinated to believe that there's no alternative to what the markets want, which is why you find so many "op-ed" pieces in the press pooh-poohing Keynesian economics from 2008 onward - Keynesian economics lie outside of neoliberal discourse, and are therefore "invisible" as an alternative to that discourse.

Our political class fed us to the markets because their economic discourse told them it was the right and proper thing to do.

 

[ViolentPanda]

My father's house has many mansions.

Property-owning bastard!!!

 

[teqniq]

My father's house has many mansions.

Anyone care to translate?

 

[YouSir]

Anyone care to translate?

ButchersApron is like Mr Miyagi, when the time is right for you to understand, you will understand.

 

[teqniq]

 

[treelover]

Jeremy Corbyn: only genuine Labour supporters should vote for next leader

Hang on, it was the long term desire of the Blairites to have much more loosely affiliated supporters rather than members, now its happened and its genuine progressives, leftists, etc, they don't like it.

 

[brogdale]

Hang on, it was the long term desire of the Blairites to have much more loosely affiliated supporters rather than members, now its happened and its genuine progressives, leftists, etc, they don't like it.

Agreed at their 2014 (1st March) 'special conference'. Wonder how John Mann voted?

 

[butchersapron]

Hang on, it was the long term desire of the Blairites to have much more loosely affiliated supporters rather than members, now its happened and its genuine progressives, leftists, etc, they don't like it.

Is it? Not greens and people who aren't really labour?

 

[butchersapron]

Anyone care to translate?

Oh come on, a well known biblical phrase (yes, well known ) used to mean that we can do what you're doing and also laugh at the likes of free spirit signing something they don't agree with and other bandwagon chasers.

 

[treelover]

BA, lots of new people are getting involved, I've met some of them, they are the sort of people who were around the anti-globalisation movement, etc.

Earlier this month, the Socialist party’s official newspaper backed Corbyn’s campaign, saying he would defend people “under the cosh” of welfare cuts.

It said the leadership contest rules were a “virtual lottery in which any individual, Labour supporter or not, can potentially vote. The result is a layer of people signing up in the leadership election in order to vote for Jeremy Corbyn”. The newspaper said if Corbyn won, he should lift Labour’s ban on Militant Tendency

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...genuine-labour-supporters-leadership-election

Wintour at it again, do the SP ever describe themselves now as 'the militant tendency', Wintour trying to invoke the 80's again, when he was a teenager.

 

[butchersapron]

BA, lots of new people are getting involved, I've met some of them, they are the sort of people who were around the anti-globalisation movement, etc.



Wintour at it again, do the SP ever describe themselves now as 'the militant tendency', Wintour trying to invoke the 80's again, when he was a teenager.

What does 'getting involved' entail?

So you mean it's people who were in their 20s 15 years ago? This is the GR people you attacked for hijacking stuff then? Right?

 

[butchersapron]

Ambulance chasers, that dead body is mine! He's gonna pay out soon. It's gonna drop mate, i tell you.

 

[brogdale]

As Chairman (R)Ed said....

Letting a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought contend is the policy for promoting progress in the arts and the sciences and a flourishing socialist culture in our land.

 

[free spirit]

That means green party member free spirt who said this

I support the aims and values of the Labour Party, and I am not a supporter of any organisation opposed to it.

should not vote.

I'd support a Labour Party with the values that Corbyn seems to stand for. The Green Party largely also stands for those values, and would have supported a minority Labour government had the situation arisen.

The Labour party may choose to accept or reject this form of qualified support. That's a decision for it to make, but if it rejects that sort of support then it's dead in the water and we'll be stuck with the tories for a long while yet.