Labour leadership

[danny la rouge]

First, the Tories hold a significant majority of the popular vote as far as I am aware - happy to be corrected if I'm wrong on that.

You are wrong on that. They do hold a slim majority of seats, though.

Second, Corbyn's victory would be pyrrhic because it would be a triumph for long suppressed Labour values that would lead to the the party going down in flames. Politics is the art of the possible etc...

So a Pyrrhic victory for traditional Labour values. Finally, an answer. One I disagree with on two counts. First, I don't think Corbyn represents traditional Labour values. But that's another thread. He represents a strand of social democratic values that still holds currency on the UK, though. And that's why I don't agree with the second part of your sentence: I don't think those values being represented by a party will automatically mean them being defeated electorally. They include some pretty hard to shift attitudes. So they won't be the cause of any hypothetical Corbyn-led Labour defeat.
(Though if Corbyn does lead Laboyr to defeat at the next GE, those values will indeed be blamed by the establishment received knowledge).

And, leading on from that, how do you think British working rules and regulations will allow this putative British industry, which I quite frankly have no idea from where it will launch forth, compete with other nations?

What fresh madness is this? Oh yes, neoliberalism.

Pro-parliament? Not sure what you're getting at here.

I'm getting at: I am an anarchist. I do not think parliament is there to represent the people, but rather to represent the interests of the owning class and impose those on the people.

Yes, I think our constitution works pretty well, as it has done for hundreds of years.

Your chosen timescale rather makes my previous point for me. There hasn't been universal suffrage for even 100 years yet. So the job it is doing clearly isn't representing the people.

Oh and I was discussing parliament. The constitution is a rather wider beast.

Rightist? That makes you sound like a Maoist but if you want to make that judgment, feel free.

Maoist. How quaint. No, I'm not one of those. Though I understand they had nice hats.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is complete idiocy - the argument, such as I can understand it runs as follows:

Because every single person in the country who could have voted, did not vote, the fact that the Tories have a popular majority and a majority in parliament means nothing.

That is TOTALLY BATSHIT CRAZY!!!

the tories do not have a popular majority. a majority means 50%+. the tories did not achieve this level of popular vote whether on the turnout or across the wider electorate.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yeah fair play I do still have a lot of SP members on my list and i only chat to a few people on there and should really delete it. But they're not the only ones, my mum's mate asked me a few weeks ago whether i was excited by corbyn lol.

Sure. People ask me if I am excited by Corbyn too. But only because their frames of reference have been skewed by the way media filters work.

 

[Pickman's model]

Labour lost and they lost abysmally. They should be looking to work out how to become electable again, not going on off on a grand, fruitless adventure.

may i remind you:

what i am saying is it is iniquitous for a party with the support of a scanty 25% of the electorate to have achieved a plurality of seats. and it is a sign of deep-rooted stupidity to take such a tainted victory as evidence that the country is four-square behind the conservatives and their view of politics more generally.

 

[J Ed]

Sure. People ask me if I am excited by Corbyn too. But only because their frames of reference have been skewed by the way media filters work.

It's hard to blame people for thinking like that. Most people do not pay very much attention to politics and that is logical, considering the amount of influence the average individual can exert on politics, but if someone is on telly enough that does give them legitimacy and it widens the Overton window.

 

[Pickman's model]

frogwoman i bet you diamond's doing all this on a client's dime.

 

[Diamond]

My point is that you're bollocking on about how our "fundamental rights" don't change as though you're making some sort of important constitutional distinction (in fact a pathetic equivocation because you were called out once again on your woeful politics) while the goverment is in practice outright ignoring those rights, even as they agree with you that they're fundamental.

Sorry - too incoherent to make sense of. Try again caller.

 

[Cid]

Because by paying £3 to the labour party you're financing them and agreeing that

'I support the aims and values of the Labour Party, and I am not a supporter of any organisation opposed to it.'

Diamond for once has a point that that is so widely drafted as to be meaningless. It's basically just a get out clause to allow them to block people, it's not really a positive assertion on the part of the person agreeing with it - the aims and values of the labour party could mean anything from the old clause IV to free market capitalism.

Most of the people I know who've signed up (myself included) are pretty sceptical of Corbyn himself, even more sceptical of the effect he can have on the labour party and still more sceptical that the labour party can ever have relevance to the left again... Don't have many trots on my fb though. It's really more a case of there being nothing to lose (except £3 and ten minutes).

 

[Diamond]

yeh 12/09/2001 for starters.

Have you followed the course of the UK public terrorism laws over the past, say, 35 years?

 

[Rob Ray]

Sorry - too incoherent to make sense of. Try again caller.

I'm terribly sorry, I'll try and slim it down a bit.

You are a moron.

 

[J Ed]

'I support the aims and values of the Labour Party, and I am not a supporter of any organisation opposed to it.'

Diamond for once has a point that that is so widely drafted as to be meaningless. It's basically just a get out clause to allow them to block people, it's not really a positive assertion on the part of the person agreeing with it - the aims and values of the labour party could mean anything from the old clause IV to free market capitalism.

Yes, they haven't banned Dan Hodges from voting for example.

 

[Diamond]

No. It has been explained quite clearly above. The plurality electoral system has translated 24% of the registered turnout into a parliamentary majority of 12. What is it that you can't understand?

The electorate who could vote and wanted to vote - i.e. those who are political - voted for a Tory government.

Is that difficult for you to understand?

 

[danny la rouge]

This is complete idiocy - the argument, such as I can understand it runs as follows:

Because every single person in the country who could have voted, did not vote, the fact that the Tories have a popular majority and a majority in parliament means nothing.

That is TOTALLY BATSHIT CRAZY!!!

Once again you demonstrate you have no understanding even of the terms you are using.

Look up what "the popular vote" means. Contrast that with what "parliamentary majority" means. Think about concepts such as "seats" and "FPTP".

And frankly stop detailing threads until you at least understand the basics of how parliamentary democracy works. Ffs, you claim to support it! I don't!

 

[Diamond]

if the country wants a tory government so badly why did 75% of the electorate not support them - indeed, the number of people who didn't vote was markedly larger than the number of people who voted tory.

Do you think that Labour would have gained a greater proportion of the vote with Corbyn as leader and, if so, show your reasoning?

 

[Cid]

The electorate who could vote and wanted to vote - i.e. those who are political - voted for a Tory government.

Is that difficult for you to understand?

That is an astonishingly stupid statement.

 

[rutabowa]

Do you think that Labour would have gained a greater proportion of the vote with Corbyn as leader and, if so, show your reasoning?

Because I saw it will be so.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm terribly sorry, I'll try and slim it down a bit.

You are a moron.

You not met Diamond before? Two whole pages before you reach this conclusion

 

[Diamond]

Once again you demonstrate you have no understanding even of the terms you are using.

Look up what "the popular vote" means. Contrast that with what "parliamentary majority" means. Think about concepts such as "seats" and "FPTP".

And frankly stop detailing threads until you at least understand the basics of how parliamentary democracy works. Ffs, you claim to support it! I don't!

So are you arguing that (i) the Tories do not have a parliamentary majority and/or (ii) they don't have a popular majority?

 

[Diamond]

That is an astonishingly stupid statement.

Why, how, what is wrong about it?

It's amazing how far people are burying their heads in the sand on this thread.

Simple truth - the Tories are in power because the popular majority who cared wanted them to be in power and they didn't want Miliband.

 

[killer b]

glad to see that whole 'replying to him' thing is going so well.

 

[rutabowa]

glad to see that whole 'replying to him' thing is going so well.

That was your thing. I cast my vote already, I've got nothing to do till the results come in now.

 

[Pickman's model]

Have you followed the course of the UK public terrorism laws over the past, say, 35 years?

please to try to keep to the topick at hand

 

[Cid]

Why, how, what is wrong about it?

It's amazing how far people are burying their heads in the sand on this thread.

Simple truth - the Tories are in power because the popular majority who cared wanted them to be in power and they didn't want Miliband.

You equated voting with 'being political'.

 

[Pickman's model]

The electorate who could vote and wanted to vote - i.e. those who are political - voted for a Tory government.

Is that difficult for you to understand?

so what were the other 73% of the electorate who did vote but didn't vote for the conservative party? apolitical?

 

[Pickman's model]

You equated voting with 'being political'.

no, he equated voting tory with being political. i think.

 

[killer b]

the whole anti-semitism thing seems to be coming to a head atm - anyone any thoughts on if it's going to have any traction?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why, how, what is wrong about it?

It's amazing how far people are burying their heads in the sand on this thread.

Simple truth - the Tories are in power because the popular majority who cared wanted them to be in power and they didn't want Miliband.

i suggest you get someone else to do your thinking for you because you're doing a fucking awful job of thinking yourself.

 

[brogdale]

The electorate who could vote and wanted to vote - i.e. those who are political - voted for a Tory government.

Is that difficult for you to understand?

If you refuse to accept the fact that a 36.9% popular vote on a 66.1% turnout equates to 24.9% of the registered electorate, then there is little point in continuing any discussion.
I've no idea why, but you appear to be wilfully mis-representing the facts of the 2015 GE.

 

[Pickman's model]

the whole anti-semitism thing seems to be coming to a head atm - anyone any thoughts on if it's going to have any traction?

i don't think it will, because there have been so many attacks on him already that it looks like desperate measures, and because i think a lot of people have become bored with the litany of attacks.

 

[danny la rouge]

So are you arguing that (i) the Tories do not have a parliamentary majority and/or (ii) they don't have a popular majority?

I am arguing the latter.

Go and make a cup of tea. Re-read all the posts where people have explained the distinction to you. And for a moment put aside any enmity you may feel for the people making those posts, for they are right and you are making an arse of yourself, no matter how much back peddling you now attempt.

The Tories do not have a majority of the popular vote. What they have is a slim majority of seats.

This is what everyone has been trying to tell you. Now seriously, stop digging.