Labour leadership

[Diamond]

it means you don't know where you stand tomorrow.

So have you woken up one day as a UK citizen and not known what your fundamental rights are?

If so, I would be interested to know that day...

 

[rutabowa]

The simple point is this - the country wants a Tory government ... until the left realise that, then there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting rid of a Tory government.

well there's a conundrum eh.

 

[Zabo]

There now follows a much needed interlude. While your are sipping your Corbynian coffee and chomping on your Chompski bar you may want to have a go at this little quiz. Apologies in advance for it being from The G. We knew it wouldn't take them long to descend into sub zero mediocrity.

Backers and Knackers

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...abour-grandees-backing-labour-leadership-quiz

Sorry but it is pissing it down outside.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

No - your assertion was that the Tory government is illegitimate because of the proportion of the total available vote across the entire electorate it won in relation to the seats it gathered was disproportionate.

I challenged you on two points - (i) first, that the proportional total vote argument is fundamentally spurious, and (ii) second, that other parties have soared far higher or dipped much further than the Tories have in relation to their actual votes.

The simple point is this - the country wants a Tory government.

I don't want a Tory government but until the left and the centre-left (which I would place myself in) realise that, then there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting rid of a Tory government.

You really are a stupid, boring cunt.

 

[rutabowa]

There now follows a much needed interlude. While your are sipping your Corbynian coffee and chomping on your Chompski bar you may want to have a go at this little quiz. Apologies in advance for it being from The G. We knew it wouldn't take them long to descend into sub zero mediocrity.

Backers and Knackers

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...abour-grandees-backing-labour-leadership-quiz

Sorry but it is pissing it down outside.

I'm clicking on jeremy corbyn for every lord in the quiz, just to piss them off.

 

[Wilf]

I dont think that's a legally binding oath

We need to check with a lawyer.

 

[Rob Ray]

So have you woken up one day as a UK citizen and not known what your fundamental rights are?

If so, I would be interested to know that day...

Jesus which of the dozens of times where rights have shifted do we pick here? There's the maximum limit on pickets suddenly becoming a criminal matter. Or the one where groups of more than three people listening to repetitive beats was made illegal. Or the one where they banned protest on Parliament square.

And "freedom of assembly," if you asked most British citizens, would be listed as among the core rights we're most proud of having.

 

[Diamond]

And here was me thinking that the point is to enable dodgy attacks on citizens' rights which a written constitution might get in the way of. But no sure, you're probably right, I mean it's not like there's a movement to get rid of the HRA and European rights laws or legislation being drafted on the fly to deal with challenges to government snooping/covert ops against citizens or anything.

The HRA stuff is worrying, admittedly, but there's quite enough caselaw precedent in place that should provide some protection unless parliament goes directly against it, which would be odd.

And then getting rid of the HRA doesn't mean leaving the ECHR, which is simply what the HRA is (the latter being incorporated directly as statute law - it does not emanate from the EU, which is a common misconception) and so technically it's a meaningless political stunt from our wonderful Tories.

It will make it much, much harder to get proper redress but unless we leave the ECHR then scrapping the HRA leaves us at odds with an international treaty that we are still signed up to and which we were instrumental in creating - of course the Tories would never tell the electorate that scrapping the HRA means leaving the ECHR because that would make us almost a pariah nation under international law but they're not really fantastic about medium to long term thinking anyway, being politicians...

 

[danny la rouge]

On that reasoning, what is your take on the SNP's performance versus UKIP?

In the area it stood, the SNP won (just) over 50% of the popular vote. UKIP stood in 624 of the 650 constituencies, and won 12.6% of the popular vote using 650 seats as the base. I can't be bothered finding out the number of voters who turned out in the 26 seats they didn't stand in so that I can work out what percentage of the 624 seats they did stand in that equates to. But the lesson for UKIP is clear; if they want to replicate the SNP seat tally, they need to pick a geographic area where they can win most of the popular vote and only stand there.

Short version: your comparison is ridiculous and misunderstands the FPTP system, the nature of Westminster, the make up of the UK, the aims of the SNP, the goals of UKIP and arithmetic. In fact, it shows you have misunderstood all of the relevant details.

 

[Rob Ray]

You're a dangerously naive person Diamond.

 

[J Ed]

So have you woken up one day as a UK citizen and not known what your fundamental rights are?

If so, I would be interested to know that day...

I have no idea to what extent I have freedom of speech and I would question anyone who claimed to know. You can be prosecuted for putting a picture of a burning poppy on twitter.

 

[J Ed]

You're a dangerously naive person Diamond.

People of his class make a sport out of defending the establishment, right or wrong.

 

[danny la rouge]

Thats true enough but ive not actually said a great deal to treelover tbh. Point taken tho

What killer b said is the more direct version of what my post about curating your Facebook feed better was aiming at .

You know too many of the wrong sort of people.

 

[Diamond]

Jesus which of the dozens of times where rights have shifted do we pick here? There's the maximum limit on pickets suddenly becoming a criminal matter. Or the one where groups of more than three people listening to repetitive beats was made illegal. Or the one where they banned protest on Parliament square.

And "freedom of assembly," if you asked most British citizens, would be listed as among the core rights we're most proud of having.

So when exactly was "freedom of assembly" rescinded?

The odd thing about "rights" is that the common law understanding was that anything was allowed that was not restricted.

The civil law idea is that what is codified (in a way restricted) is allowed.

As an intellectual point, we now have two systems jogging along side by side which should, hopefully, reinforce each other.

 

[danny la rouge]

I have no idea to what extent I have freedom of speech and I would question anyone who claimed to know. You can be prosecuted for putting a picture of a burning poppy on twitter.

Unless you are the DWP and are doing it for "illustrative purposes".

 

[J Ed]

So when exactly was "freedom of assembly" rescinded?

If people on strike cannot have more than three people on a picket line then how can you argue anything else?

 

[J Ed]

Unless you are the DWP and are doing it for "illustrative purposes".

 

[Diamond]

I have no idea to what extent I have freedom of speech and I would question anyone who claimed to know. You can be prosecuted for putting a picture of a burning poppy on twitter.

Freedom of speech here is nowhere near as liberal as it is in the States where it is a constitutional right under the First Amendment but almost all free speech rights are limited in some way or fashion.

 

[brogdale]

The simple point is this - the country wants a Tory government.

I don't want a Tory government but until the left and the centre-left (which I would place myself in) realise that, then there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting rid of a Tory government.

I sense I may be joining this discussion rather late, but a statement like that cannot go unchallenged.

When you say "the country" I presume you mean the UK? If that's the case, it is patently not true that 'the country' expressed a desire for a tory government. It is true to say that 24.39% (11,334,576) of the (registered) electorate decided to vote for tory candidates (which probably equates to pretty close to 1 in 5 of those age eligible to vote).

Of that (approx.) 20% of adults, it would be reasonable to assume that not every person voting tory actually desired a tory government.

It's not a simple point at all that 'the country' voted for a tory government.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The simple point is this - the country wants a Tory government.

{citation needed}

 

[J Ed]

Freedom of speech here is nowhere near as liberal as it is in the States where it is a constitutional right under the First Amendment but almost all free speech rights are limited in some way or fashion.

No shit and that has been the argument of every authoritarian state in modern history. "Of course we cannot allow the Basques to fly their flag, we have to limit some rights for the sake of public safety"

 

[Rob Ray]

So when exactly was "freedom of assembly" rescinded?

I never said it was rescinded, I've pointed out where it's been restricted to the point where people would be unaware of their constitutional rights, as asked in your frankly ludicrous attempt at defending the transparency of Britain's utterly byzantine legal system.

 

[Favelado]

Answer all of his questions with questions.

 

[Diamond]

If people on strike cannot have more than three people on a picket line then how can you argue anything else?

I'm not a fan of the Tory government - I think I've made that fairly clear, although people may have got another impression given my opinions on a range of subjects and I am especially not keen on the proposed trade union legislation, which seems to indicate how far right this government want to take things.

That's why I think the whole Corbyn thing is, to be frank, a bit of a mistake.

It's silly season and it's the only political story out there.

If Corbyn gets in, he will face a relatively powerful government pushing through an agenda that will force him to go further and further left and further away from the electorate. The Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee.

 

[Favelado]

Fuck off and join the Lib Dems. They're up your street.

 

[Diamond]

I sense I may be joining this discussion rather late, but a statement like that cannot go unchallenged.

When you say "the country" I presume you mean the UK? If that's the case, it is patently not true that 'the country' expressed a desire for a tory government. It is true to say that 24.39% (11,334,576) of the (registered) electorate decided to vote for tory candidates (which probably equates to pretty close to 1 in 5 of those age eligible to vote).

Of that (approx.) 20% of adults, it would be reasonable to assume that not every person voting tory actually desired a tory government.

It's not a simple point at all that 'the country' voted for a tory government.

Yes, you are joining this late - we have already explored this issue a few pages ago.

 

[Diamond]

I never said it was rescinded, I've pointed out where it's been restricted to the point where people would be unaware of their constitutional rights, as asked in your frankly ludicrous attempt at defending the transparency of Britain's utterly byzantine legal system.

So it's a limited right, then?

Like freedom of speech, for instance?

 

[brogdale]

Yes, you are joining this late - we have already explored this issue a few pages ago.

Then why are you still peddling such ill-informed falsehoods?

 

[rutabowa]

please enjoy this impressive logic once more:

The simple point is this - the country wants a Tory government ... until the left realise that, then there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting rid of a Tory government.

i meditate on it daily like a zen mystery.

 

[DotCommunist]

If people on strike cannot have more than three people on a picket line then how can you argue anything else?

will you answer this Diamond?


I love these 'we live in a democracy' sorts. How thats defined and effected through our ruling class doesn't accord with the principle really.