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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

HoratioCuthbert said:
Jewdas were raging when Israel won Eurovision, the anti-Semitic bastards.
In fairness though, anti-Zionism is actually the form anti-semitism tends to take in this day and age, rather than the old school goose-stepping and that. I picked up on this far too late in the day, with regards to a pro Palestine group up here. Mind how you tread.
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It happens, but is 'Zionism/Zionist' necessarily antisemitic? I prefer "Israeli government" when talking about actions against Palestinians. Pickman's model regularly uses "Zionist entity",though, and I don't see many people being more aware of the history or the issues.
 
Yeah i’d stick with Israeli government. I’ve just come off 4 nights but if I mind on in the morning I think there’s a few good links on why using certain terms might be a bit dodge.
 
My original post didn’t state Zionism was necessarily anti-Semitic, I don’t want to expand on that right now in case I fuck up, but what I meant was actual anti-semites are using that particular issue these days to express those views, that’s where you’ll find them. If that makes sense.
 
Sasaferrato said:
Not many defending the Labour party, full stop.
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I will defend the Labour Party until I die, as the alternative is a Tory-led Government as we know, and that will benefit no one except the rich as we know. However, unconditional does not equate to uncritical. My criticism of the Labour Party at present is that the Party structure didn’t act to suspend the treacherous right wing detractors with the same ruthless efficiency that the blairitte dregs displayed when the same faces tried every which way to scupper Corbyns election as leader. It is total naivety to believe they haven’t been biding their time waiting for a suitable issue to arise which they could attach themselves to for maximum effect, There were plenty of just opportunities to suspend them and other defectors in waiting for insubordination and breach of standards, but alas the left are too soft compared to the ruthless stalinistic-efficiency of the right wingers.
As for the antisemitism issue, in a party of half a million there will as a matter of course be members who’s views and opinions are aborhent. The issue is whether the party is institutionally antisemetic.
The partys complaints and compliance unit was shown to be wholly dysfunctional with the wave of targeted suspensions during the Corbyn campaign. At that time I like many thousands of long term members were suspended without even being notified as to the reasons. When I rang to query my own suspension I was put through to a junior staff member who was working alone to administer the process for thousands. Once the new Corbyn management finally managed to wrest control of the party from clammy hands of the Blairitte dregs, they have had to waste endless hours fending of internal attacks and acts of disloyalty from the same nucleus of MPs who have now betrayed the party and the voters, whilst at the same time trying to reform and expand the back office structure to support the vastly increased membership. Unlike the former managers, I would hope that whatever the accusation levelled against a member, they should expect a fair process if they are to be subject of expulsion or suspension. What the rightwing want is summary expulsion at the moment of accusation, in line with how they behaved. There do need to be actions, but it is complete bollocks to say nothing was being done, compare the Tories response to their islamaphobia crisis to that of the Labour Party and then decide who the complicit racists are - Corbyn is not antisemetic he is pro-Palestinian which puts him greatly at odds with the Israeli Government, whilst the right wing of the party is in the main solidly on the side of the Israeli Government even justifying their illegal actions in the occupied territories. This shift of allegiance at the top has jarred the right wing. The actions of the Israeli government in continuing to expand the illegal settlements in the Palestinian Territories, and the ongoing suppression of the Palestinian people is not getting the attention it should in part I would suggest, due to new definitions of what constitutes antisemitsm making people afraid to open their mouths for fear of using the wrong phrasing when justifiably criticising the actions of Israel. Antisemitism is a very real problem as is racism in general throughout society, and the important thing is to ensure there are robust processes to deal with incidents fairly when they arise, which is not at odds with acting decisively. At the same time we need a proper internal enquiry to determine if the party is institutionally antisemetic or not, and that must be thorough and evidence based, not given a predetermined verdict based on a relatively small number of complaints against actual party members. What do they want him to do? Set up a committee to expel members and deprive them of the right to dispute and challenge evidence, agree blindly that the whole party is antisemetic and then step down so those neoliberal traitors can save the day and take back control?
The far right are marching across Europe. Democracy itself is in retreat and a racist bigot rules the the worlds super power, yet chukka and chums would have us believe the real threat to the Jewish community is The Labour Party. The result of all this will be a Tory Government which will help no one, Jew or gentile alike. Idiots like Derek Hatton will always provide good copy for the Tory press. Jon lansman helps not one iota with his posturing and knee jerk comments either. Half a million people deserve a fair and thorough investigation, not trial by media manipulated by some of the most immoral labour politicians since Ramsey McDonald and Oswald Mosley
 
MadeInBedlam said:
And breathe
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I am the mentally ill you seek to arm
No amount of tranquillisers and antipsychotics can suppress my frustration and fury at the way this situation has been manipulated. I try to keep clear of political discourse these days for the sake of my health, but this is all or nothing now. Their end goal is to destroy the party my forbears helped build. And otherwise sensible people are being carried along thanks to jon lansman who should know better the old fool
 
MadeInBedlam said:
Are the far right likely to gain power in Britain? Does challenging AS in labour mean not challenging the far right?
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If they succeed in destroying the Labour Party, do you seriously believe the neoliberal politics of the new ‘central’ grouping will effectively tackle it? Neoliberals themselves must see they’ve failed and are losing ground across Europe to the real fascists. If we don’t offer a real alternative to what has gone before and failed we are up that creek without a paddle
 
This is a useful run-through of the elision of anti-Zionism and anti-semitism by Kenan Malik. There's nothing new in it, but is bears repeating.

The following sections are particularly worth picking up in this context, but it's only a short piece and worth taking as a whole.

"Particularly in sections of the left, anti-Zionism has more and more appropriated, often unrecognised, anti-Semitic tropes."

"There are, in other words, many forms of anti-Zionism, some progressive, some anti-Semitic. What has shifted is that leftwing ideas of anti-Zionism have become increasingly colonised by anti-Semitic forms. The reasons are complex, ranging from evolving notions of ‘anti-imperialism’ to the mainstreaming of conspiracy theories."

"Identity politics has led many to target Jews for being Jews, especially as they are seen as belonging to a group with many privileges to check, and to hold all Jews responsible for the actions of the state of Israel. Many who support the Palestinian cause, including many within the Labour party, seem genuinely unable to distinguish between criticising Israel and sowing hatred against a people."


ANTI-ZIONISM IS NOT ANTI-SEMITISM
 
There's a weird way that some labour supporters are instrumentalising possible anti-semitism in the party in the same way that those they call blairites etc - they now are using it exactly as the wedge to get them out of the party using organisational disciplinary measures. This has the effect, whether intended or not, of making anti-semitism a side issue, the main focus is not on the undoubted rise in incidents of anti-semitism and the semi-accepted public expression of it in some political forums/contexts that are tied to labour and, more specifically, corbyn support - but on what this rise means for the labour party - not wider society or jewish people in particular.

Similarly, on anti-zionism - anti-zionism simply can and often is anti-semitic today. In the same way as being anti-capitalist or anti-imperialist are now both positions of a big part of the contemporary far-right - the more serious end of it for sure. That is now beyond dispute. And there is then a crossover with the first point where those people with a consistent non-anti-semitic anti-capitalism get angry because they think they are being accused of anti-semitism and then jump into what i outlined in the first para, a defensive overreaction that turns into the mirror of their opponents. Doing a) exactly what their enemies want and b) making the situation worse and making sure it not only doesn't go away but adds more fuel to the fire.

This is about the labour party - but not in the way that a lot of these people seem to think.

(I'm sure Corbyn said that he would be taking lessons on what modern anti-semitism is and does after not being able to see the anti-semitic tropes in that disgusting mural - does anyone know if he did, what form it took and if so, is this sort of education being put in place nationally, not just for MPs but for members).
 
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MadeInBedlam said:
Paging people more intelligent than myself (of which there are many): copliker danny la rouge butchersapron Serge Forward
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Anti-semitism of the right has classically historically seen and portrayed the jew as a threat to national and social integrity undermining old well established customs and traditions, owing loyalty to no one but other jews. Simplistically put, this developed from religious principles into racial principles in the mid-late 19th century (this is contentious though, there is currently an ongoing debate over this - even over whether the religious element was really that strong). Jews were seen as the worm in the happy national apple, or the plague bacillus to use the nazis preferred version and so had to be curtailed, either through restrictions on say employment or professions or where to live - either way a program of management was required, and that program could be extended or intensified at times of crisis for the state and elite - see the black hundreds being used in russia to keep a divided peasanty/working class and direct frustration away from the state. We know where this management went later on.

Anti-semitism associated with the left developed as capitalism did and was originally tied up via the personal anti-jewism of a few big hitters (Proudhon etc) and later mixed up with the counter-revolutionary conspiracy of the right reaction to the french revolution in France and parts of germany. It was based on critique of the growing role of money in upending all manner of traditional society and forced proletarianisation and with the consequent deterioration in conditions for the working class and peasantry, which allowed it to develop a veneer of (in today's rubbish term) of hitting upwards, of being on the side of the oppressed. So to be for the poor and downtrodden was to be against the jew. It also allowed them to differentiate themselves from exterminationist or authoritarian right anti-semitism by saying that it was capitalism and its imperatives that needed removing not jews, and once that happened the jewish question would have been answered. That element has never been lost from those anti-anti-semitisms that see themselves as on the left or as anti-capitalist. In fact, as you know there has been regrouping around anti-capitalism and anti-imperialists of the left and right over the last decade.
 
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butchersapron said:
Anti-semitism of the right has classically historically seen and portrayed the jew as a threat to national and social integrity undermining old well established customs and traditions, owing loyalty to no one but other jews. Simplistically put, this developed from religious principles into racial principles in the mid-late 19th century (this is contentious though, there is currently an ongoing debate over this - even over whether the religious element was really that strong). Jews were seen as the worm in the happy national apple, or the plague bacillus to use the nazis preferred version and so had to be curtailed, either through restrictions on say employment or professions or where to live - either way a program of management was required, and that program could be extended or intensified at times of crisis for the state and elite - see the black hundreds being used in russia to keep a divided peasanty/working class and direct frustration away from the state. We know where this management went later on.

Anti-semitism associated with the left developed as capitalism did and was originally tied up via the personal anti-jewism of a few big hitters (Proudhon etc) and later mixed up with the counter-revolutionary conspiracy of the right reaction to the french revolution in France and parts of germany. It was based on critique of the growing role of money in upending all manner of traditional society and forced proletarianisation and with the consequent deterioration in conditions for the working class and peasantry, which allowed it to develop a veneer of (in today's rubbish term) of hitting upwards, of being on the side of the oppressed. So to be for the poor and downtrodden was to be against the jew. It also allowed them to differentiate themselves from exterminationist or authoritarian right anti-semitism by saying that it was capitalism and its imperatives that needed removing not jews, and once that happened the jewish question would have been answered. That element has never been lost from those anti-anti-semitisms that see themselves as on the left or as anti-capitalist. In fact, as you know there has been regrouping around anti-capitalism and anti-imperialists of the left and right over the last decade.
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Cheers
 
Thanks to danny la rouge for posting a link to that article by Kenan Malik. It was in the Observer too, so on a day that the Observer with all it's TiG arselicking was pissing me off much more even than usual :mad: , something sensible on another page was really welcome. I was going to post a link myself last night but I forgot :oops:
 
I'm going to have to stop myself at some point, but I do like reading "the papers" in the pub of a weekend. (we both do in fact)
As much for sport, reviews, general news, etc., as for politics though, tbf to myself ....

But The Observer on Sunday is a lot worse (politically) than The Guardian on Saturday, especially right now, and that's saying a fair bit :oops:
 
William of Walworth said:
I'm going to have to stop myself at some point, but I do like reading "the papers" in the pub of a weekend. (we both do in fact)
As much for sport, reviews, general news, etc., as for politics though, tbf to myself ....

But The Observer on Sunday is a lot worse (politically) than The Guardian on Saturday, especially right now, and that's saying a fair bit :oops:
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The observer on any day is worse than the guardian, which is saying something
 
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