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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

Yep, the left is busted cos of literally 10's of cranks on twitter ranting vs more sensible left, thanks for your enlightening contribution on this :thumbs:

there's loads of them, they are real, and they make up a sizable part of the left milieu.

your mates Novara have been pushing Williamson for a while. Ash 'what are we going to do with the white working class' Sarkar being particularly vocal in his support. It was clear from day one he was a head banger.

Rotten to the core.
 
How much of this is a Labour problem (yes I know it's there) and how much a Facebook/Twitter problem? Facebook and Twitter seem to let anti-semites and racists and fascists spread their lies. Some of them seem to be Labour people (and should be thrown out).
 
Yes, defending anti-semites, defending Atzmon, defending Beeley, retweeting anti-semites, and so on. Skating all over the edge. He’s been in the spotlight a few times.

For accuracies sake, CW retracted the 'defence of Atzmon' w/ apology as soon as is he was pulled up on it ( have no idea how he knew nothing about Atzmon's past / present ) .

He's never 'defended Beeley' , so much as tweeted sweet nothings at her after the shitty Levellers festie or whatever ( he's never rowed back on this - will guess Beeley was just a on a massive anti - US / anti Imperialist, anti bombing / anti western reporting of Syria jag at the festie panel - am sure even the most conscientious of Beeley watchers will accept she never flaunts her AS in public)

Re : Sheffield speech : there's a groundswell of anti Lansman sentiment amongst the crankier end of the base at the moment, due to JL going so big on the pro Berger, and then the Graun on Monday, saying AS is ' widespread across LP' - which was overstating, according to every measurable metric available ( all cases : processed / reported / pending etc ) - am guessing Sheff Momentum aren't on the pro JL side of things, and doubt CW is - the claim that there's over emphasis / over exaggeration / weaponisation is a perfectly reasonable one, it's just coming from CW, with his apparent track record, right in the eye of this latest storm ...

The ' defend Jackie Walker' stuff seems like a waste of time at best, or deliberate baiting at worst imo.

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Yep.

Whilst it's Labour's problem today, it could be ours tomorrow (and probably was yesterday tbf).

It’s always been a problem... Not just in pro Palestine/stwc etc type groups either. There is just an element of conspiracy theorism/anti-semitism that runs through the left. Not that I have a great deal of experience, but in the few things I’ve been involved with (well, turned up to) it’s always there. Whether that’s London squat stuff or protests.

I think I kind of let it slide until I started reading frogwoman etc on here. But it is a hellishly tricky problem... I mean I don’t think it’s in the nature of left groups to just kick people out. There’s always some twat who tries to dominate discussion, and invariably turns out to have dodgy views on x subject. But you don’t just turn them out... maybe we should.

With that said it does seem to be particularly strong in the kind of London university/post studenty left. I’d still say it’s a (small) minority who are actually anti Semitic, but that isn’t really the issue... they’re vocal, the conviction and voice of the true believer, and the miopic focus that goes with it. For me that links to what’s disappointing about the labour response. It could have been acknowledged and addressed, to at least some extent... probably wouldn’t have put off the press etc, but would at least show insight and adaptability.
 
Peter Tatchell said:
There was a vote at the Syria debate at the Beautiful Days festival: Who agrees with Peter Ford (who took the Vanessa Beeley line, including claiming that the Syria democracy movement was "mythical") and who agrees with Peter Tatchell? Chris Williamson MP voted in favour of Peter Ford’s analysis, not mine.
It's perfectly obvious that Williamson has been a fan of Beeley for a while and is not in the least bit bothered about her involvement with the French far right, the conspiraloon swamp and her Assad regime role. Why else would he go out of his way to turn up in a tent with her and her band of nutters and get a pic for posterity.
 
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...and reluctant as I am to dignify this duplicate thread with further responses, it's worth a reminder that much anti-Semitism in the Labour Party isn't some semi-mystical moral failing but comes from some quite specific failings of elements of the Left.

One is the hobbyist enthusiasm for overseas causes, that has led to "over enthusiasm" re Palestine. The general absence of class based analysis has allowed a certain void to be filled with an empty stridence that then in turn is too easily filled by anti-Semitism.

Secondly, again as a result from an absence of s class based analysis, the conspiraloons and their often anti-Semitic worldview have stepped in to suck in the activists with time on their hands and a social media account to occupy their idle hands.

These are not excuses.

Excellent incisive post, should be sent to Sheffield Momentum, which seems to be hijacked, people like key organisers like Max not now involved,
 
In my own small way, have been trying to challenge Lab AS over the least month in partic - see response to Chilango post for some deets

And honestly, the likes of Peter Kyle, and the multitude of cynical weaponisers within the PLP. are just helping fuel the cranks in the ranks, it's all so blatant, it undermines (eg) the anti AS positions that Momentum are trying to take of late

Some of Momentum, maybe not Sheffield.
 
I'm going to have to stop myself at some point, but I do like reading "the papers" in the pub of a weekend. (we both do in fact)
As much for sport, reviews, general news, etc., as for politics though, tbf to myself ....

But The Observer on Sunday is a lot worse (politically) than The Guardian on Saturday, especially right now, and that's saying a fair bit :oops:

Toby Helm is appalling, has it in for Corbyn.
 

I was at this, it wasn't a bad meeting, bar the loon from the CPGB. The vast majority of the meeting was perfectly sensible, and, indeed, even the bits being highlighted aren't that bad. Denying that there is a 'problem' with anti-semitism doesn't mean he didn't recognise that there are anti-semites who must be held to account and expelled within it, it just rejects the mainstream narrative that the party is 'institutionally anti-semitic.' Doing a little jog and celebrating the departure of some of the most right-wing MP's may not exactly be great PR, but it's also.... so fucking what?

He - and many others on the left - don't get the conspiraloonery angle, and they certainly need to learn and fucking sharpish - but, the reaction of Williamson is mostly, imo, down to wanting to defend decent people being lambasted as anti-semites when they're not. He is an 'attack dog' to help boost the morale of those driven to despair by the right.

Sheffield Momentum is actually very Lansmanny, about a quarter/third of the group walked out over a stitch up to exclude those suspended from LP membership for any reason. It's generally a bit rubbish, locally, and just has self-congratulatory meetings, discreetly run by the awful Socialist Action (via soft and manipulable frontspeople, their usual tactic).
 
Excellent incisive post, should be sent to Sheffield Momentum, which seems to be hijacked, people like key organisers like Max not now involved,
When did you last go to a Sheffield Momentum meeting? Not that I'm blaming you for not doing, just saying you are completely wrong about who is in charge of it. It does F all to oppose expulsions, says f all about, well, most things actually, it tried to pretend there are no arguments about anything and just promotes Stand Up To Racism type dullness (as well as the occasional decent meeting). The Williamson meeting is part of his ongoing democratisation tour which has been going everywhere.
 
got to say, probably haven't looked in too deeply, but found the Wadsworth debacle less clear cut than the Jackie Walker one
Wadsworth's expulsion was a joke. The man's a raging egotist, and a soft separatist, but that isn't a very good reason to expel him. The little cohort that walked in with Smeeth did look like utter wankers.
 
Excuse me as I try not to ramble too much....


One of the things that gets forgotten in the ongoing storm around AS, which goes some way to explaining peoples blindness to it, is the recent history of witch-hunting of the left within the party. When Corbyn first stood, and the supporting members category was created, the Compliance Unit spent a vast amount of time finding any excuse to exclude left-wingers, often for the most spurious and tendentious reasons. Having signed a nomination form for an opposing candidate (tho, oddly enough, it was okay if that candidate was a tory!), calling Owen Smith a cunt (tho, oddly again, it was okay to call Owen Jones a cunt), being generally a bit gobby and irritating.

At that point, despite digging through years’ worth of social media posts, I don’t think anyone was excluded for anti-semitism, it certainly wasn’t a significant part of he narrative. As late as the end of 2016 Chukka Umunna and leading lights from the JLM were saying they had never seen any AS within the party. And they had undoubtedly seen Corbyn and knew of his ‘pro-Hamas; speeches. The only people claiming Labour had a problem with anti-semitism then were right-wingers like Stephen Pollard, and GnasherJew, who were, undoubtedly, overwhelmingly concerned about supporting Israel, not maltreatment of jewish people in the UK. When there was an AS debate in the Commons, it was dominated by those Tories, who, in at least one case, changed the date of the AS attack on his wife to make it appear to have happened under Corbyn’s leadership (although, even then the abuse wasn’t actually made by someone known to be a LP member!). The idea that these tories seriously cared about anti-semitism was a bit of a joke, and it absolutely definitely couldn’t be said that any of them believed the Labour Party should be held to a higher standard than the party they supported. This goes even more for the recent recruit to the cause – David ‘friend of the EDL & Herut supporter’ Collier. He has submitted more complaints than Margaret Hodge did.

So the attacks rang hollow, and didn’t really gain any traction amongst the wider public.

That changed with that fucking mural. Something that Corbyn undoubtedly should have noticed and picked up on, and that he was entirely rightly held to account for. The one ‘good’ thing to come out of that was that a fair few more people wised up to the extent of conspiraloonery and it’s connection to anti-semitism. It was only after that, that the likes of DC etc went back through many more people’s posts and found those Rothschild posts, and crude posts about Israel and excessive use of the word Zionism.

There is no doubt, even amongst those who have signed up to Labour Against the Witch-hunt, that there are a small number of people who are explicitly anti-semitic, and who should be expelled. But, for the most part, those who are complained of have done nothing worse than be crude. Replacing the DWP logo with ‘Arbeit Mach Frei’ is not the most politically astute thing to do, but it’s been a mainstay of disability politics for years. Passionately supporting Palestine is not anti-semitic even if the writer does like to overuse the word Zionist – and this is especially true for those old enough to remember ’67 and ’73, and the reason why Israel became the most boycotted country in the UK, along with apartheid South Africa and Pinochet’s Chile (which was first recognised by… Israel). Pointing out that the Israeli state does find ways to funnel money to various MP's and uses Mossad anod other tools of the state to undermine others, isn't anti-semitic in and of itself. Education and political argument is what is needed to deal with such people, not screaming anti-semite at them. It’s (almost) funny), this board has a long history of denouncing the SWP’s way of tackling racism by shouting ‘racist’ at people with ‘legitimate concerns’ over immigration etc, but it’s good politics to shout ‘anti-semite’ at someone who misuses a word?

If I weren’t in the LAW (unofficial) facebook group, the only examples of anti-semitic comments I have seen would consist of one local member posting one Rothschild meme (which he was taken up on) and one person in the Sheffield Momentum group, who, it turned out, wasn’t in either Sheffield or the Labour Party. He was, immediately and without opposition, kicked from the group. Within the LAW group – which now includes a lot of people being investigated for AS - there are another two, maybe three, who I think should be fucked right off, and quite a few more (tho no more than a couple of dozen or so) who really should learn to moderate their language and keep their ego’s in check. Unless those people are, like Livingstone, leading members, they should be reprimanded and educated, not expelled.

All that said, it is sad and pathetic to see a couple of trot micro-sects refusing to deny there is any issue at all, and refusing to challenge any conspiraloonery or recognise the anti-semitic roots of certain statements, and even defending the ‘right’ (free speech bollox) to quote Icke. But they are a miniscule section of the membership who hold no influence over anything, thankfully.
 
‘Replacing the DWP sign with Arbeit Macht Frei isn’t politically astute’.

Funny how so many individuals who use nazi imagery as ‘protest’ (including the ‘disability’ movement) turn out to be antisemites though isn’t it?
 
It’s (almost) funny), this board has a long history of denouncing the SWP’s way of tackling racism by shouting ‘racist’ at people with ‘legitimate concerns’ over immigration etc, but it’s good politics to shout ‘anti-semite’ at someone who misuses a word?
I don't really see this happening.
 
‘Replacing the DWP sign with Arbeit Macht Frei isn’t politically astute’.

Funny how so many individuals who use nazi imagery as ‘protest’ (including the ‘disability’ movement) turn out to be antisemites though isn’t it?
not in my experience of it, no. I wholly accept my experience is limited, but I haven't seen anything beyond the usual folk who call anyone to the right of Blair a nazi. treelover would have more knowledge of the local scene, I don't know if he has seen any such evidence.
 
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