Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[butchersapron]

I'm not sure that's right.

In recent years I've seen virtually no evidence for committed anti-semitism in the Labour Party or on the UK left generally. As in any movement made up of every level from experienced hacks to naive newcomers there are some careless or thoughtless ideas/talk knocking around, but the way to deal with that is through argument, discussion and education, not "zero tolerance," suspensions and expulsions.

How would you define this "hint" of anti-semitism?

I'm pretty sure the author of the report sees any criticism of Israel or of Zionism as full on, sieg-heilling anti-semitism. You won't satisfy them without purging all such criticism, and perhaps not even then.

When that's done some people will look at the actions of Israel and say "if it's anti-semitic to oppose oppression then I must be anti-semitic." In that way good people are thrown into the arms of the conspiraloons.

The best way to deal with this is campaign resolutely against both Zionism and anti-semitism within the Labour Party, and show in practice that one isn't the opposite of the other.

So much this. We've seen it with the government in the past few years, all the big social media networks - censoring possibly controversial opinions doesn't make them go away - it just pushes people to extremes. People should be free to criticize the Israeli government without this aggressive label.

Would either of you describe the labour party response as doing what you both suggest?

I think using the quite transparent motives of the author to just ignore the hardcore committed ideological anti-semitism deep within key labour linked people posted in the report is to both ignore it and prepare the ground for a defence of it on free speech grounds or content, It stinks. The longer left wingers just pretend that anti-semitism = anti-zionism (in that specific order) the longer this goes on.

 

[19force8]

Would either of you describe the labour party response as doing what you both suggest?

Of course not, it's a position to argue for. Nothing more.

I think using the quite transparent motives of the author to just ignore the hardcore committed ideological anti-semitism deep within key labour linked people posted in the report is to both ignore it and prepare the ground for a defence of it on free speech grounds or content, It stinks. The longer left wingers just pretend that anti-semitism = anti-zionism (in that specific order) the longer this goes on.

Do "left wingers just pretend anti-semitism = anti-zionism?"

Maybe you could say who exactly. Are they the same people as the mysterious "key labour linked people" with their "hardcore committed ideological anti-semitism?"

 

[butchersapron]

Of course not, it's a position to argue for. Nothing more.


Do "left wingers just pretend anti-semitism = anti-zionism?"

Maybe you could say who exactly. Are they the same people as the mysterious "key labour linked people" with their "hardcore committed ideological anti-semitism?"

Look at the order in which i posted "anti-semitism = anti-zionism" rather the the reverse.

And yes, plenty of them do - a whole host in the thing that we're talking about. Before you waste both of our time in suggesting that i'm positing anti-semitism as left wing trait you could look at those left-wingers, those momentum people those eddy and rita from Bristol - pictured with corbyn, central to bristol momentum, central to bristol palestine museum/embassy - as openly holocaust denial as you could get.

There is no hope of this though because - it's just anti-corbyn to you. You literally, like them, will walk that away.

 

[butchersapron]

I'll add that i don't think that you have any idea of how modern anti-semitism works and is working and so a generic pledge to oppose both zionism and anti-semtism is like a pledge to fight jim crow.

 

[Pwerus]

Would either of you describe the labour party response as doing what you both suggest?

I think using the quite transparent motives of the author to just ignore the hardcore committed ideological anti-semitism deep within key labour linked people posted in the report is to both ignore it and prepare the ground for a defence of it on free speech grounds or content, It stinks. The longer left wingers just pretend that anti-semitism = anti-zionism (in that specific order) the longer this goes on.

I'm not really defending or attacking Labour on this one. This is an isolated incident in a broader debate, that will probably never be settled.
I'm concerned about the erosion of people's freedom to criticize Israel and its government without an easy label like "anti-Semitism" being thrown at them.
You seem to be concerned about the opposite issue - people defending genuine anti-Semitism under the guise of free speech. I respect your opinion and all, but look at it this way: this is a controversial topic that many people have very strong feelings about. Jeremy Corbyn has been gathering a reputation for being good at criticizing the tories, but struggling to come up with his own alternative or make difficult decisions. It seems pretty in-character for Labour to keep quiet and try to wait this issue out.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not really defending or attacking Labour on this one. This is an isolated incident in a broader debate, that will probably never be settled.
I'm concerned about the erosion of people's freedom to criticize Israel and its government without an easy label like "anti-Semitism" being thrown at them.
You seem to be concerned about the opposite issue - people defending genuine anti-Semitism under the guise of free speech. I respect your opinion and all, but look at it this way: this is a controversial topic that many people have very strong feelings about. Jeremy Corbyn has been gathering a reputation for being good at criticizing the tories, but struggling to come up with his own alternative or make difficult decisions. It seems pretty in-character for Labour to keep quiet and try to wait this issue out.

It's not an isolated incident. It's the latest in a long running series of incidents. So many that they may be called a tendency or something.

Kicking anti-semites out of labour and arguing why anti-semitism is wrong is not not about free-speech. Its about a) a membership group and b) racism.

Free speech is neither here nor there on either of these issues. Nor is racism in any way controversial. Is it in your particular labour branch?

 

[butchersapron]

When we've reached the stage that calling out anti-semitism should be 'questioned' because it might hurt corbyn then we're already too far. Fuck that shit.

 

[Pwerus]

It's not an isolated incident. It's the latest in a long running series of incidents. So many that they may be called a tendency or something.

Kicking anti-semites out of labour and arguing why anti-semitism is wrong is not not about free-speech. Its about a) a membership group and b) racism.

Free speech is neither here nor there on either of these issues. Nor is racism in any way controversial. Is it in your particular labour branch?

I've found articles from 2016 or so on the issue, but I mostly see a lot of arguments about the same one or two issues, so whatever.

As for racism - even that's debatable. Do you consider the Jews a race or a religion? Do you consider criticism of Israel and its government to be anti-Semitic? Is criticism of the Israeli government criticism of the entire Jewish race and religion? Is criticism of Judaism as a religion racist, or just as protected by free speech laws as criticism of Christianity, and organised religion in general? Hate speech only applies to what people say if they are actively condoning violence against certain groups. In the example of Naz Shah, she was certainly anti-Semitic, but she never condoned violence or aggression against Jews. Where do you draw the line there? Where does the government draw the line? Where does the media draw the line? Where does anyone draw the line? This is the kind of vagueness I'm concerned about.

Here is an on-topic comment from MP Ken Livingstone, on the difference between criticising Israel and Judaism itself, who was later also accused of anti-Semitism: "“I think blurring these two things undermines the importance of antisemitism because a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbours in Golders Green or Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing."

As for your "Its about a) membership group and b) racism" comment, that's a good point - you don't have to break any laws to be kicked out of a political group or company trying to save face, and similarly, low-key Jeremy Clarkson/Polandball-tier racist jokes to friends outside the workplace don't immediately get you fired either. It's just a matter of what blows up on the media enough to damage the party or company's reputation, where it should fall to the mainstream media to be responsible on whose career they do or don't ruin. Is that right? Is that wrong? I don't know, but for now, I don't think the mainstream media are very responsible on that issue, which is where my concerns come from.

 

[butchersapron]

I've found articles from 2016 or so on the issue, but I mostly see a lot of arguments about the same one or two issues, so whatever.

As for racism - even that's debatable. Do you consider the Jews a race or a religion? Do you consider criticism of Israel and its government to be anti-Semitic? Is criticism of the Israeli government criticism of the entire Jewish race and religion? Is criticism of Judaism as a religion racist, or just as protected by free speech laws as criticism of Christianity, and organised religion in general? Hate speech only applies to what people say if they are actively condoning violence against certain groups. In the example of Naz Shah, she was certainly anti-Semitic, but she never condoned violence or aggression against Jews. Where do you draw the line there? Where does the government draw the line? Where does the media draw the line? Where does anyone draw the line? This is the kind of vagueness I'm concerned about.

Here is an on-topic comment from MP Ken Livingstone, on the difference between criticising Israel and Judaism itself, who was later also accused of anti-Semitism: "“I think blurring these two things undermines the importance of antisemitism because a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbours in Golders Green or Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing."

As for your "Its about a) membership group and b) racism" comment, that's a good point - you don't have to break any laws to be kicked out of a political group or company trying to save face, and similarly, low-key Jeremy Clarkson/Polandball-tier racist jokes to friends outside the workplace don't immediately get you fired either. It's just a matter of what blows up on the media enough to damage the party or company's reputation, where it should fall to the mainstream media to be responsible on whose career they do or don't ruin. Is that right? Is that wrong? I don't know, but for now, I don't think the mainstream media are very responsible on that issue, which is where my concerns come from.

You can only find examples of anti-semitism, or claims thereof - from 2016? What search engine you using?

Yes. Anti-semitism is racism.

I don't think that your banal trotting out of the defences of anti-semitism that hide under anti-zionism (there are many other left wing ways in which to do this) add up to anything but the defence of just that.

 

[Pwerus]

You can only find examples of anti-semitism, or claims thereof - from 2016? What search engine you using?

Yes. Anti-semitism is racism.

I don't think that your banal trotting out of the defences of anti-semitism that hide under anti-zionism (there are many other left wing ways in which to do this) add up to anything but the defence of just that.

I see that I can't call out a government that's blatantly lied to the world on its ownership of chemical weapons, as well as broken the Geneva Convention, without people thinking I'm defending anti-Semitism.

Well, sometimes to do some good you've got to be the bad guy, so to speak. I'm expressing my concern over vagueness from the government, the media, and people who are too trigger-happy with words like "anti-Semite" and "racist" and this discussion hasn't exactly convinced me that there aren't obvious communication problems on this matter. However, I respect your opinion on the matter.

 

[butchersapron]

I see that I can't call out a government that's blatantly lied to the world on its ownership of chemical weapons, as well as broken the Geneva Convention, without people thinking I'm defending anti-Semitism.

Well, sometimes to do some good you've got to be the bad guy, so to speak. I'm expressing my concern over vagueness from the government, the media, and people who are too trigger-happy with words like "anti-Semite" and "racist" and this discussion hasn't exactly convinced me that there aren't obvious communication problems on this matter. However, I respect your opinion on the matter.

twat

 

[Sweet FA]

"Racist" is an increasingly vague and subjective term that some people like to use against the likes of UKIP and the Tories."

 

[Pwerus]

twat

 

[19force8]

So you refered to

key labour linked people posted in the report

When I asked you to say who you said

those momentum people those eddy and rita from Bristol - pictured with corbyn, central to bristol momentum, central to bristol palestine museum/embassy - as openly holocaust denial as you could get.

Given your description I'm sure these are thoroughly anti-semitic people, but they weren't mentioned in the report were they? Nor, incidentally, was Bristol. So how am I supposed to know of them?

Look at the order in which i posted "anti-semitism = anti-zionism" rather the the reverse.

Look at the order in which I quoted you saying "anti-semitism = anti-zionism" you pompous prat.

There is no hope of this though because - it's just anti-corbyn to you. You literally, like them, will walk that away.

And fuck you too.

 

[butchersapron]

So you refered to
When I asked you to say who you said
Given your description I'm sure these are thoroughly anti-semitic people, but they weren't mentioned in the report were they? Nor, incidentally, was Bristol. So how am I supposed to know of them?

Look at the order in which I quoted you saying "anti-semitism = anti-zionism" you pompous prat.

And fuck you too.

They were either in that report or the author's previous - they are about the exact same people.

And?

Nothing to see here. Nothing.

 

[butchersapron]

Pages and pages of labour party members sharing utterly disgusting racist stuff but you know...corbyn

 

[butchersapron]

Is there any possible way labour could tighten up on anti-semitism. Do you know what, i think they could - and further, crazy as it sounds - they should.

 

[butchersapron]

Anti-semitism has slid into left culture in a way i thought impossible 10 years ago.

 

[19force8]

They were either in that report or the author's previous - they are about the exact same people.

So which is it? The report we're talking about or some previous report which you've never mentioned?

Is there any possible way labour could tighten up on anti-semitism. Do you know what, i think they could - and further, crazy as it sounds - they should.

Glad to hear you're getting on board. Even gladder to know you'll not be doing so anywhere near me.

 

[butchersapron]

So which is it? The report we're talking about or some previous report which you've never mentioned?

Glad to hear you're getting on board. Even gladder to know you'll not be doing so anywhere near me.

The previous one that the latter one built on.

Likewise - but for diff reasons. Mine: don't like anti-semites and their justifiers. Yours: don't like corbyn and keep quiet about the racists and their racism.

 

[19force8]

When did I justify anti-semitism?

 

[butchersapron]

When did I justify anti-semitism?

What did i say?

 

[19force8]

What did i say?

What did you say?

 

[butchersapron]

What did you say?

Bottler

 

[19force8]

Bottler

Pissant

 

[butchersapron]

Join the swp

 

[19force8]

Join the swp

Oh I'm so hurt.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah, was shit, but not as shit as your argument that anti-racism is bad for corbs. Be quiet.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh I'm so hurt.

Your argument appears to to be that you're not anti-semitic and the last time time you checked this was still true and because you know the eternal never changing diff between the anti-zionism and ant-semitism that you are in the clear. Things have changed.

 

[19force8]

Yeah, was shit, but not as shit as your argument that anti-racism is bad for corbs. Be quiet.

You'd be right if I'd ever made that argument, but since I haven't that's shit too.