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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

Yeah...I wanted to add misrepresented to that post but someone quoted it before I could.

Interestingly in his JC article he regrets alikening NGF to a nazi but says nothing of basically lying about what he had written. He dresses the lie up in disgust and again repeats it.



https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnists/don-t-play-the-nazi-card-1.57727

Freedland - perhaps unwittingly, perhaps wittingly - signals his allegiance in the final sentence. There are not, and shouldn't be, any "sacred cows". There should not be a taboo on comparison of Jews with Nazis, if the actions of Jews warrant it.
 
Yes I read the holocaust industry book, it was a requirement as a right-on student, if you were going to go on the Palestine marches which I did along with everyone else. In the intervening years have thought about stuff a bit more and now think that book and the man himself are abysmal.
Please don’t quote me just carry on amongst yourselves because I (honestly) can’t do chat this subject and feel ok it’s the only topic I can’t remain calm on and should never have said anything. It does not, or shouldn’t, matter to me at all what people on this website reckon on this topic.

This is what I’ve got re Fink & Irv’s correspondence.These are form a book called the jewish divide over Israel- accusers & defenders by Bognador & Alexander

It quotes Irving plugging Finkelstein by saying “We have corresponded in past years.. I am sure that many Americans will want to see and hear this brave man”. (p147)

Goes on to say “Finkelstein not only enjoys cordial relations with Hitler apologists such as Irving, but readily grants interviews to the kind of bigot who identifies his work as “a comprehensive picture of the great plot of International Jewery [sic]..a blessing for all holocaust deniers..The book really provides all a professional negationist requires; Jewish plot, Israeli Zionism, greed”. (148)- the ref link to second one as given in the book no longer works and the first was Irvings twitter.

So the word I read was cordial & I turned it into ‘friendly’, whatever. And if this is untrue it still wouldn’t change what I think of the book because the meaning of a thing is its use iykwim. over & out
 
So nothing from Finkelstein himself then? Basically Irving trolling and bigging himself up and suggesting he has written to Finkelstein then others repeating the same lies as Freedland but it's okay because the meaning of a word is in it's use?

intemperate
ɪnˈtɛmp(ə)rət/
adjective
  1. having or showing a lack of self-control; immoderate.
    "intemperate outbursts concerning global conspiracies"
    synonyms: immoderate, excessive, undue, inordinate, unreasonable, unjustified, unwarranted,

Intemperate...on this thread also being used to mean dishonest.
 
Yes that's what I was referring to, the friendly correspondence between Fink and Irving and the popularity of his works on neo-nazi websites, where the full text of the bestseller can be read alongside such classics as The Hoax of the twentieth Century & The International Jew by Ford. . If I feel like getting riled later will come back and post a few of my 'favourite' quotes of his.
Go on...the floor is yours
 
Yes I read the holocaust industry book, it was a requirement as a right-on student, if you were going to go on the Palestine marches which I did along with everyone else. In the intervening years have thought about stuff a bit more and now think that book and the man himself are abysmal.
Please don’t quote me just carry on amongst yourselves because I (honestly) can’t do chat this subject and feel ok it’s the only topic I can’t remain calm on and should never have said anything. It does not, or shouldn’t, matter to me at all what people on this website reckon on this topic.

This is what I’ve got re Fink & Irv’s correspondence.These are form a book called the jewish divide over Israel- accusers & defenders by Bognador & Alexander

It quotes Irving plugging Finkelstein by saying “We have corresponded in past years.. I am sure that many Americans will want to see and hear this brave man”. (p147)

Goes on to say “Finkelstein not only enjoys cordial relations with Hitler apologists such as Irving, but readily grants interviews to the kind of bigot who identifies his work as “a comprehensive picture of the great plot of International Jewery [sic]..a blessing for all holocaust deniers..The book really provides all a professional negationist requires; Jewish plot, Israeli Zionism, greed”. (148)- the ref link to second one as given in the book no longer works and the first was Irvings twitter.

So the word I read was cordial & I turned it into ‘friendly’, whatever. And if this is untrue it still wouldn’t change what I think of the book because the meaning of a thing is its use iykwim. over & out
Pisspoor
 
Please don’t quote me just carry on amongst yourselves because I (honestly) can’t do chat this subject and feel ok it’s the only topic I can’t remain calm on and should never have said anything. It does not, or shouldn’t, matter to me at all what people on this website reckon on this topic.
Utterly pathetic, you make deliberate smear and won't even pretend to defend it. This is the same type of shit you've pulled ever since you started to post on U75.
 
I've gotta say, unless I'm missing something- which I don't think I am, I find it hard to believe that a guy who is not only jewish but whose family suffered and perished (in some cases) in the holocaust has nazi sympathies. I think I'm right in saying that most of his family were murdered by the nazis. I also believe that this fact was a motivation for Finkelstein writing The Holacaust Industry, atleast this is what he claims in his book and he explains that in detail.
 
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The NCC on Greenstein here:


OK he's abusive online and there is an undertone of sexism in there but I'm not seeing any evidence of bullying and harassment. Personally I don't have much time for him and he hasn't done himself any favours but all that's beside the point. You've got to have the right to be personal and to shame people. There'll be others who don't meet the criteria of enforced politeness.
 
The 91 page report

Looks like racist shit like atzmon being shared - and what does look like a skim positive refs to protocols of elders of zion, holocaust deniers like Paul Eisen etc. Need to read it proper to determine if it's being shared within the group when Corbyn and Paul mason (the latter is a member today) etc are members or if it's supporting evidence of members posting this stuff elsewhere. Either way these people sharing this stuff are in this group with high level labour participation.

edit: wow every disgusting anti-semitic trope and conspiracy going appears to be there.
 
The 91 page report

edit: wow every disgusting anti-semitic trope and conspiracy going appears to be there.
Yep, there's some real shit there.Thanks for the link.

I've had half an hour to zip through it now and I'm sure the report itself does not justify the attack on Corbyn, Walker et al that follow in the press. In fact the reports conclusions are in themselves quite extraordinary:

The research draws several important conclusions:
➢ Antisemitism is a key motivating factor in anti-Zionist activity and it spreads like a virus within it.
➢ The concentration levels of anti-Zionists who share hard-core antisemitic ideologies registered at 64%. With Jewish activists excluded the figure was even higher at 73%.
➢ Behind the closed doors of a hidden Facebook Group, major political figures such as Jeremy Corbyn, Jenny Tonge and David Ward engage with hard-core antisemites, even while in public making emphatic denunciations of this racism.
➢ The network is large and effective.
➢ A small, but highly vocal group of Jewish anti-Zionist activists is engaged in using Jewish identity as ‘a weapon’ to deflect accusations of antisemitism.
➢ These Jewish anti-Zionists in turn teach their compatriots to insulate themselves from the charge of antisemitism by substituting the word ‘Zionist’ for ‘Jew’. They rarely (if ever) address the antisemitism itself.
➢ A key anti-Israel figure involved in the Mavi Marmara incident privately supports the Israeli version of events, stating that the Israeli soldiers were attacked before any of them discharged a weapon.
➢ Key peace activists place ideology above horrific antisemitism. There is little or no reaction to other activists sharing Holocaust Denial. If there is a reaction, it is to say, ‘do that specific activity elsewhere’, rather than ‘get out of this group’.
➢ Anti-Zionists view Zionists as ‘global manipulators’, ‘thieves’, ‘bloodsuckers’ and ‘intent on destroying the world to fulfil their own evil agenda’. It is a precise copy of antisemitism.
➢ In anti-Zionism, far-right and far-left are interchangeable.
Which is a pity, because a decent report could have gone a long way to expose the anti-semites that try to attach themselves to the Palestinian cause.
 
Googled the author (David Collier) on the train home. It seems he has form:

Ofir demolishes David Collier

Again, the pity is there is a case for dealing with the problem of anti-semitites latching onto the PSC, but this fuckwit just serves to label such criticism as pro-zionist propaganda
 
Freedland - perhaps unwittingly, perhaps wittingly - signals his allegiance in the final sentence. There are not, and shouldn't be, any "sacred cows". There should not be a taboo on comparison of Jews with Nazis, if the actions of Jews warrant it.

They'd have to be going some to warrant it, but the principle is sound.
 
They'd have to be going some to warrant it, but the principle is sound.
Will this do?

Palestinian Schoolteacher Mauled by Israeli Military Dog as Soldiers Watch
Bursting into a schoolteacher’s house in the middle of the night, soldiers sicced their dog on him. The dog bit him and held on, as his family looked on, horrified

Palestinian schoolteacher mauled by Israeli military dog as soldiers watch [edit] Sorry, paywall.

It's copied here by Tony Greenstein: Tony Greenstein's Blog: Another Nazi custom - Israel's use of biting dogs against Palestinians
 
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And here we go again:

Jeremy Corbyn Was Member Of Facebook Group At Centre Of Anti-Semitism Investigation

I don't have time for this at the moment. Maybe later.
Surely Corbyn doesn't manage his own facebook a/c, though?

And yes, the pro-Israel are probably trying to cynically exploit this one, and others like it - but it should never have been allowed to get this far. There should have been far greater, visceral intolerance for anything that even smelt slightly of anti-semitism, and this wouldn't be happening now.
 
Surely Corbyn doesn't manage his own facebook a/c, though?

And yes, the pro-Israel are probably trying to cynically exploit this one, and others like it - but it should never have been allowed to get this far. There should have been far greater, visceral intolerance for anything that even smelt slightly of anti-semitism, and this wouldn't be happening now.

I disagree - this was always going to happen as long as Corbyn was in charge. Even a complete renunciation of and apology for his previous views on Palestine, and a purge of anyone who held views that matched whatever the definition of anti-semitic behaviour that would satisfy the likes of Collier and Phillipps was, wouldn't have satisfied them - they only want him out. Just take a look at some of the stuff the people who speak for LabourAgainstAS are putting out on twitter to see the truth of that.
 
I disagree - this was always going to happen as long as Corbyn was in charge. Even a complete renunciation of and apology for his previous views on Palestine, and a purge of anyone who held views that matched whatever the definition of anti-semitic behaviour that would satisfy the likes of Collier and Phillipps was, wouldn't have satisfied them - they only want him out. Just take a look at some of the stuff the people who speak for LabourAgainstAS are putting out on twitter to see the truth of that.
I agree that the motivations for the attacks are absolutely nothing to do with opposing antisemitism, and that there would still be attacks regardless of what UK Labour did, but a hardcore opposition to any hint of it internally would made it harder.

More importantly it would just be the right thing to do. I'm much less concerned about press attacks on Corbyn than antisemitic poisoning of discussion of middle eastern politics, capitalism, the media and all the other places where it continues to pop up and be handwaved at. I was reading defences of Farrakhan's anti-semitism today ffs - not on the basis of "this is an issue being exploited to attack the civil rights movement and we shouldn't play to their tune" or even "okay that was bad but look at all the inspiring other things he says" but "oh well it's complicated" or "but who are the real semites?".
 
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I agree that the motivations for the attacks are absolutely nothing to do with opposing antisemitism, and that there would still be attacks regardless of what UK Labour did, but a hardcore opposition to any hint of it internally would made it harder.
I'm not sure that's right.

In recent years I've seen virtually no evidence for committed anti-semitism in the Labour Party or on the UK left generally. As in any movement made up of every level from experienced hacks to naive newcomers there are some careless or thoughtless ideas/talk knocking around, but the way to deal with that is through argument, discussion and education, not "zero tolerance," suspensions and expulsions.

How would you define this "hint" of anti-semitism?

I'm pretty sure the author of the report sees any criticism of Israel or of Zionism as full on, sieg-heilling anti-semitism. You won't satisfy them without purging all such criticism, and perhaps not even then.

When that's done some people will look at the actions of Israel and say "if it's anti-semitic to oppose oppression then I must be anti-semitic." In that way good people are thrown into the arms of the conspiraloons.

The best way to deal with this is campaign resolutely against both Zionism and anti-semitism within the Labour Party, and show in practice that one isn't the opposite of the other.
 
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I'm not sure that's right.

When that's done some people will look at the actions of Israel and say "if it's anti-semitic to oppose oppression then I must be anti-semitic." In that way good people are thrown into the arms of the conspiraloons.

The best way to deal with this is campaign resolutely against both Zionism and anti-semitism within the Labour Party, and show in practice that one isn't the opposite of the other.
So much this. We've seen it with the government in the past few years, all the big social media networks - censoring possibly controversial opinions doesn't make them go away - it just pushes people to extremes. People should be free to criticize the Israeli government without this aggressive label.
 
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