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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

Brian Klug on (leftwing) anti-Zionism and anti-semitism:
Yes, Zionism is part of the history of European imperialism in the twentieth century, and it was a settler project. However, the plight of millions of marginalized European Jews in the first half of the century, together with their hopes and aspirations for a better life, are one thing; the imperial ambitions of European powers that set out to colonize the globe in order to extend the scope of their rule, plunder resources and create captive markets for their products, are another. When the left gives the impression that this subtle difference eludes them, when they fold Zionism tout court into the story of European hegemony, then they have erased from the record the argument that went on in the shtetls of Europe over the way out for Jews from oppression, which is the back story for Zionism. When they erase this back story, is it any wonder if a ripple of discomfort spreads among the rank and file of Jews, including many of us who repudiate Zionism, condemn the occupation of the West Bank and the siege of Gaza, and denounce the oppression of Palestinians by the State of Israel? You don’t have to ‘love Israel’ to feel this discomfort.

It is a short step from feeling this discomfort to sensing antisemitism, even if that perception is false — especially when phrases like ‘the power of the Israel lobby’ or ‘the influence of the Zionist media’ are loosely bandied about, conjuring up ghosts of a ghastly past, rubbing new salt into old wounds. To quote the late anti-Zionist socialist Jew Steve Cohen, “Any group which claims to be against anti-semitism should be ultra-vigilant in the imagery it evokes.”(8) The same rule of thumb applies to all forms of racism: it is a fundamental principle of anti- racist action. Which does not mean pulling your punches. Nothing I have said is intended to suggest that anyone should go soft in arguing against Zionism as an idea or Israel as a state. I certainly do not intend to tone down my criticism.
Zionism, Antisemitism and the Left Today • Jewish Voice for Labour

I agree with this and I think with the level of dickishness around the subjects of Israel and Zionism it should be widely distributed.

There is a sense in which people like Ken Livingstone and Tony Greenstein bring it on themselves. At the same time, there's no question that they should be readmitted to the Labour Party. Dickishness should not mean expulsions.
 
There is a sense in which people like Ken Livingstone and Tony Greenstein bring it on themselves. At the same time, there's no question that they should be readmitted to the Labour Party. Dickishness should not mean expulsions.

Livingstone should be kept out, not so much for what he said (which was bad enough) but because he knew what damage it would do, did it anyway and then kept doing it.
 
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"We'll expel you not because of what you said but because of how it will get exploited." That's really shit. Sure the Labour Party thinks that way, but this is Urban75. We don't lower ourselves to the standards of Labour Party apparatchiks. Do we?
 
Over-reacting to this does broader damage. There are definitely a small number Labour members who are anti-semites and there are many more who are on the cusp. Given the conspiratorial nature of anti-semitism - how much damage does it do to say that you can't discuss the Zionist movement's relation to the Nazis in the 1930's? Some bad publicity for the Labour Party does not cut it compared to the broader questions involved. Going back to the Brian Klug piece, there needs to be a bit of calm discussion on these issues. Who benefits from polarisation here?
 
Incidentally Moshe Machover was accused of anti-semitism for defending Ken Livingstone and repeating and elabourating on his thesis. He also "damaged" the Labour Party in doing so ie. there were some bad headlines. Are you going after him as well? He's a much more respected figure for lefties than Livingstone is, but his crimes are the same. How have the immediate interests of the Labour Party become so vital around here?
 
Have the immediate interests of the Labour Party become vital round here?

FWIW: I would want Greenstein out of any group I was a member of. Partly because the calm discussion which you think is so necessary simply is isn't possible with him involved.
 
I used to be a member of the Scottish Socialist Party at the time it was quite big and making headway. As you can probably imagine it had more than its fair share of Tony Greensteins (and worse, much worse) and yet there was a lot of calm discussion eg. over hot potatoes such as Northern Ireland, drugs, prostitution and homophobia (there was a small but very vocal homophobic contingent). We kind of managed. Admittedly it then all fell a part. But surely the Labour Party can cope with Greenstein. The broader point is that this is not just a bureaucratic measure against a troublesome individual (and to be fair he's more just a bit of prick than any real trouble), this is part of a struggle for the control of the Labour Party.
 
Livingstone should be kept out, not so much for what he said (which was bad enough) but because he knew what damage it would do, did it anyway and then kept doing it.
I think you may be giving Ken too much credit in the self or political awareness stakes. I never thought his love of amphibious skin shedding colour changing reptiles was a coincidence ifykwim.
Surely it would be worth re-admitting him just to piss John Mann off?
 
Man with Yiddish name guilty of anti-semitism.:(

What did he say online, the article doesn't go into detail?

Is 'Zio' short for Zionist?
He said Zionism is Jewish anti-semitism, zionists were nazis collaborators, and thatcher was a legitimate target.

It is - in a very small number of places
 
I was going to politely point out that ‘greenstein’ is the anglicisation of a German surname. There’s nothing Yiddish about it.

Also not sure what’s sad about someone with an Ashkenazi background being expelled for antisemism. Why the sad face Rutita1 (genuine question, not sure what you’re getting at with your emoji)
 
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What did this Greenstein fella say that was so antisemitic? If someone could provide a quote that would be much appreciated. I'm not suprised he got the boot though, personally attacking and insulting members of your own party like that isn't going to do you any favours.
 
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I'd say that the zionist movement has certainly capitalized on anti-semitism (this is obvious and is something that Norman G. Finkelstein has explored and written about) and my understanding is that they were not exactly co-operative regarding helping non-zionist jewish holocaust victims. My understanding is that the zionist movement (or atleast a part of that movement) were only too happy for non-zionist jews to perish and that they acknowledged the convenience of this. Having said that it has been some time since I examined this topic and if I'm incorrect then it would be great if someone could put me right.

I remember reading one of Finkelstein's books some years ago (The Holocaust Industry) and it was interesting and I recommend that people read it, he explores how the right-wing jews never liked to talk about the holocaust immediately after the war because it didn't at all aid their cause to bring people's attention to certain German scientists and whose side they were on after the war. In comparison, left-wing jews were open about the holocaust and were enthusiastic that we learned from it. Finkelstein's book is also interesting in other ways.
 
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What did this Greenstein fella say that was so antisemitic? If someone could provide a quote that would be much appreciated. I'm not suprised he got the boot though, personally attacking and insulting members of your own party like that isn't going to do you any favours.
According to Tony he wasn't expelled for anti-semitism as such, but for being offensive to/about other Labour Party members:
The charges which were brought, as the barrister for the Labour Party was at pains to point out, were not that I was anti-Semitic although of course the Zionists will pretend otherwise. My ‘crime’ in essence was the abuse of racists and Zionists (or Zios) in the Labour Party including that detestable supporter of Palestinian child abuse, Louise Ellman.

Full tedious details here: Tony Greenstein's Blog

Honestly, I don't think the guy's an anti-semite, but he is one of those hair trigger ranters and grudge bearers few, if any, political parties would be able tolerate for long.
 
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I'd say that the zionist movement has certainly capitalized on anti-semitism (this is obvious and is something that Norman G. Finkelstein has explored and written about) and my understanding is that they were not exactly co-operative regarding helping non-zionist jewish holocaust victims. My understanding is that the zionist movement (or atleast a part of that movement) were only too happy for non-zionist jews to perish and that they acknowledged the convenience of this. Having said that it has been some time since I examined this topic and if I'm incorrect then it would be great if someone could put me right.

I remember reading one of Finkelstein's books some years ago (The Holocaust Industry) and it was interesting and I recommend that people read it, he explores how the right-wing jews never liked to talk about the holocaust immediately after the war because it didn't at all aid their cause to bring people's attention to certain German scientists and whose side they were on after the war. In comparison, left-wing jews were open about the holocaust and were enthusiastic that we learned from it. Finkelstein's book is also interesting in other ways.
It seems that holocaust survivors embarrass Israel in more ways than one. For example, by pointing out the similarities between Israel's treatment of African refugees and Eichman's expulsion of Jews from Vienna.
 
I'd say that the zionist movement has certainly capitalized on anti-semitism (this is obvious and is something that Norman G. Finkelstein has explored and written about) and my understanding is that they were not exactly co-operative regarding helping non-zionist jewish holocaust victims. My understanding is that the zionist movement (or atleast a part of that movement) were only too happy for non-zionist jews to perish and that they acknowledged the convenience of this. Having said that it has been some time since I examined this topic and if I'm incorrect then it would be great if someone could put me right.

I remember reading one of Finkelstein's books some years ago (The Holocaust Industry) and it was interesting and I recommend that people read it, he explores how the right-wing jews never liked to talk about the holocaust immediately after the war because it didn't at all aid their cause to bring people's attention to certain German scientists and whose side they were on after the war. In comparison, left-wing jews were open about the holocaust and were enthusiastic that we learned from it. Finkelstein's book is also interesting in other ways.
I don't remember anything in it suggesting or supporting the idea that right wing Jews used the holocaust as an opportunity to get rid of left wing Jews or others who opposed their political positions. Are you sure?
 
I don't remember anything in it suggesting or supporting the idea that right wing Jews used the holocaust as an opportunity to get rid of left wing Jews or others who opposed their political positions. Are you sure?
I think there might be some conflation here between a suggestion that zionists in Palestine during WWII didn't concern themselves unduly about the fate of europe's jews, and the willingness of right wingers in the 1950s to throw anti-nazi jews under the McCarthyite bus.
 
I think there might be some conflation here between a suggestion that zionists in Palestine during WWII didn't concern themselves unduly about the fate of europe's jews, and the willingness of right wingers in the 1950s to throw anti-nazi jews under the McCarthyite bus.
If so, it's rather a serious conflation isn't it?
 
I generally ignore your posts nowadays, but that is so stupid it deserves comment.
And yet it's not an uncommon view in certain quarters. This from the Jerusalem Post:

Engage has noted the following of Finkelstein''s exploitation of the Holocaust:

Neo-Nazis adored this book. Ernst Zundel wrote that “Finkelstein continues his one-man intifada against the Holocaust establishment and vigorously attacks the Holocaust profiteers [in his] ever-so-feisty volume.” David Irving was proud to admit that he had corresponded for years with Finkelstein. The IHR’s Journal for Historical Review bestowed the highest praise on Finkelstein’s work: “the kind of things revisionists have been saying for years… one can find much of… Finkelstein prefigured in the early writings of Butz and Faurisson."

The Holocaust Industry: Finkelstein, Gary Spedding and the Anti-Israel Activist 2.0 - Blogs - Jerusalem Post

Also an interesting insight into the history of G Spedding.
 
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