bimble
floofy
You edited your post but haven't changed your view then. Whatever.
Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Fuck the neoliberal / zionist tendency, we're never going to get anywhere if we let them push people who don't align with their interests around, through money/media power, as they're doing in this case.
The real issue is whether we can conceivably have our interests represented by a party involved in what passes for democracy in this country.
The answer is apparently not.
The real issue is whether we can conceivably have our interests represented by a party involved in what passes for democracy in this country.
The answer is apparently not.
bimble
floofy
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
No. I'm sorry, I've had enough of this.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
no , I think they're conspiradivs, anti NWO dweebs etc, and anti semites, who drift into online JC support, via wider ' anti elitism' ideas, as well as attracted to JC / Lab Left pro Palestinian postiions fitting in with their anti semitism.
Pure online though, wldnt last 2 mins at a CLP / or any other kind of labour movement related meeting, it would be ridiculous.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Fixtures secretary for the Winnie the Pooh Club?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Quite.
Anyone dumb enough to equate per se anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not someone involved in even "what passes for democracy". They're involved in a shell-game that attempts to conflate the irrational hatred and/or fear of Jews with a rational disgust at an ideology. People who do that don't represent my interests, either as a Jew or a democrat (of the only real kind - an anarchist), they represent the interests of Zionism. This is as true of members of Labour Friends of Israel and their Conservative peers as it is of the tedious Jewish "Establishment" in the UK - the tail-wagging dogs of the BDBJ, and the heads of the sects.
As for the interface with neoliberalism, I'd say - in fact I'll state, as some reading this will otherwise make assumptions based on their own prejudices - that's about power alignment and power relations as opposed to alluding to some bullshit about "International Bankers" and other Icke-ist cock-throttling.
There's a great deal wrong with what Ken Livingstone said given the context and the false impression it creates and the sheer political stupidity of bringing it up. However, saying that Hitler supported Zionism for a time is not an unreasonable interpretation of history - it's at least fair comment as the Nazi regime lent material support to the Zionist movement under the Haavara agreement - even if it is misleading in terms of Hitler's political outlook and the broader picture.
Now all the fuss is supposed to be about Ken bringing the party into disrepute and that the historical question is irrelevant and that's just bullshit. If Ken came out and said, "Well I shouldn't have started talking about the 1930's even if what I said was substantially true", then all would not be forgiven. He has to withdraw his interpretation of history when frankly he is entitled to it. I despise the Zionist lobby more for its sheer prissiness than for its vile interpretations of events thousands of miles (which they can affect as little as I can). So we're all supposed to tread on egg shells when discussing details of history regarding the Nazi regime now? Fuck that, and good for Ken for sticking to his (idiotic) guns.
Now all the fuss is supposed to be about Ken bringing the party into disrepute and that the historical question is irrelevant and that's just bullshit. If Ken came out and said, "Well I shouldn't have started talking about the 1930's even if what I said was substantially true", then all would not be forgiven. He has to withdraw his interpretation of history when frankly he is entitled to it. I despise the Zionist lobby more for its sheer prissiness than for its vile interpretations of events thousands of miles (which they can affect as little as I can). So we're all supposed to tread on egg shells when discussing details of history regarding the Nazi regime now? Fuck that, and good for Ken for sticking to his (idiotic) guns.
Treacle Toes
Time
The American Jewish scholar behind Labour’s ‘antisemitism’ scandal breaks his silence
I never saw this last year. Didn't realise Finkelstein had been dragged into this shitstorm.
I never saw this last year. Didn't realise Finkelstein had been dragged into this shitstorm.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Treacle Toes
Time
whoops wrong person
Hahaha I saw that and was gonna ask why you disliked him so much...decided to have my lunch instead.
bimble
floofy
If you're a bit behind on Finkelstein you may not be aware that he isn't very popular anymore, since saying he thinks the BDS movement is ' a maoist cult'.
An Unpopular Man
An Unpopular Man
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Didn't stop the anti-Deutsch picketing our place when he came to town.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
That would be five years ago.
And he didn't say it is a Maoist cult. That would be plain stupidity, but hey, your reading skills.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Perhaps you should actually read the article, which says nothing of the sort
cantsin
Well-Known Member
huh ?
Since coming out in 2012 against the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, however, he has alienated his core followers. A few years ago, Finkelstein tells me, he made $40,000 in speaking fees from 80 talks to Palestinian Solidarity groups around North America. “This past year when I went to my accountant ... he said, 'I think you have a mistake here, it's only $3,000.' I said, 'No, it's not an error.' He said, 'What happened?' And I thought to myself: Am I going to explain to him BDS?"
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Hmm I'm not sure that's a reliable source any more (they've been really pro Assad afaik) and imo there are legitimate grounds to criticise him on this eg raed salah, his work for press TV, etc. However some of the criticisms are looking a bit deranged at the moment since the worst of it was a number of years ago, his views have clearly shifted on some issues, and so trying to make him out to be a racist scumbag just doesn't work in my opinion.
teqniq
DisMembered
I take your point entirely, especially the pro-Assad stuff, but have a look at the linked Jewish chronicle stuff which is where in fact I first read about this.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
Mini hooha about Haringey Council's' passing of broad / apparently non too controversial anti semitism motion last night , opposed by pro BDS group ( for allegedly attempting to stifle debate ), and with Haringey Momentum calling for lobby / (demo?) against it.
Labour councillor since spraying around accusations re: Momentum thugs thugging it in the chamber etc, others saying no Momentum there, it was pro Palestine group ( and not thuggy ) but have to say, am having trouble seeing exactly what there is to object to in the motion as out lined below, or whether there is more proscription / restriction etc detailed elsewhere - don't know if anyone knows more about all this ?
Agenda item - To consider the following Motions in accordance with Council Rules of Procedure No. 13 | Haringey Council
Labour councillor since spraying around accusations re: Momentum thugs thugging it in the chamber etc, others saying no Momentum there, it was pro Palestine group ( and not thuggy ) but have to say, am having trouble seeing exactly what there is to object to in the motion as out lined below, or whether there is more proscription / restriction etc detailed elsewhere - don't know if anyone knows more about all this ?
Agenda item - To consider the following Motions in accordance with Council Rules of Procedure No. 13 | Haringey Council
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J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Huh? Can't see anything to object in that at all. It's really hard not to draw some worrying conclusions by the fact they are calling a demo against it
Yes, it seems like a reasonable and fair minded agenda item. I have no idea who is objecting to it but whoever is doing so is either ignorant or bigoted or a combination or the two.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
Huh? Can't see anything to object in that at all. It's really hard not to draw some worrying conclusions by the fact they are calling a demo against it
How do you read passages like this one?
Doesn't this equate anti-zionism with an anti-semitism? What room does it leave for people to argue that the state of Israel should be abolished, precisely, because it is conceived of in terms that privilege one ethno-religious community over others?
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