Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[killer b]

Do you think I have an agenda?

 

[Sifta]

Interesting article:

How UK Labour moderates played the Jewish card, and why they used us to do it

from "the director of EIPA, a multi-disciplined pro-Israel advocacy Group based in Brussels"

points the finger for the entire plot squarely at the Blairites

 

[Tom A]

Well if you look at what Jackie Walker actually said, it does smack of conspiratorial thinking of the type the left can well do without, and the type that definitely feeds into anti-Semitic discourse and justifies anti-Semitic beliefs, in a similar vein to "the Rothschilds caused the world wars and 9/11":

“As I’m sure you know, millions more Africans were killed in the African holocaust and their oppression continues today on a global scale in a way it doesn’t for Jews,” Ms Walker wrote.

“Many Jews (my ancestors too) were the chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade which is of course why there were so many early synagogues in the Caribbean. So who are victims and what does it mean? We are victims and perpetrators to some extent through choice,” she added.

That sounds to me like an accusation that the Jews were responsible for the bloodshed in Africa to me.

It doesn't apply to the whole of "the left" but rather to a certain noisy subset of it - that the likes of the SWP, Momentum, Left Unity, Respect etc. and their fellow travellers in Labour are good examples of.

That's not "the Left" though.

Well as someone who has in one form or another been involved in "the left" for over a decade these groups have if not dominated had an omnipresence amongst anything that advocates a position to the left of the status quo. Some groups are worse for this than others, I do not need to mention the many fuck-ups that the SWP/Respect are responsible for, Momentum seems to be very much a mixed bag, in Manchester a friend tells me it is mostly a conspiraloon free zone but in other cities they make up a very loud minority to say the least, Cambridge Momentum particularly had a problem with such people. I was in Left Unity till the end of last year and we tried to position ourselves as being more sensible and in touch with the working class than the SWP et al. but we were forever tripping over ourselves and turned out to have multiple sects within a sect squabbling with each other. Then there was the debacle of the person who proposed we consider "the Islamic Caliphate" (i.e. Daesh) a progressive thing - it was only voted for by himself and the seconder, but it attracted unwanted negative attention nonetheless. However IME the people I know who are still in LU are still decent community campaigners.

then, as butchers mentioned there's the conspiracists who've infected other sections of the left (e.g. Occupy) in recent years.

Again IME they crop up depressingly often, Occupy Manchester became swamped by them and they also were a significant contingent of the anti-fracking campaigns here. They tend to currently campaign under the banner of "Wake up (town)!" - which possibly explains why they thankfully are not a major force in Manchester Momentum. But to sum up, I have learned that in the left you should not give such people an inch in case they take a mile - and often facepalm at the times when I see conspiratorial bullshit appearing on my FB news feed, even from relatively well balanced people.

going round in circles here, but what evidence is there of any conspiraloons polluting 'left wing discourse' as opposed to just doing their usual bullshit thing online ?

They overran Occupy in many places outside of London - and there are signs they are going to try and do the same with Nuit Debout. The V-for-Vendetta brigade and the David Icke fan club (there is overlap between the two) tend to be out in force during major protests. The anti-fracking campaigns particularly attracted them like flies to a corpse. Going further back - and this is one of the more striking examples, they dragged Indymedia UK though a pile of stinking smelly dog shit and utterly discredited it as a credible news source (no thanks to certain members of the editorial collective in charge) - although even in its heyday a lot of the content coming from the newswire was iffy to say the least.

Edit to add: Also the Green Party did (and probably still very much does, if not more so now) have its fair share of kooks and cranks, and I am sure Urbanites remember Tony Gosling, the anti-Semitic, homophobic conspiraloon who frequently stood as a councillor as a Green before he was expelled in 2008 - and David Icke of course was once a prominent Green. Also they had their own controversies surrounding anti-Semitism too.

 

[SpookyFrank]

If the blairites are systematically manufacturing an anti-semitism crisis in Labour, as seems fairly plausible, well I just hope they're proud of themselves.

 

[Buckaroo]

Labour anti-Semitism crisis escalates as Jeremy Corbyn admits to sharing Hitler's vegetarian beliefs

 

[kebabking]

If the blairites are systematically manufacturing an anti-semitism crisis in Labour, as seems fairly plausible, well I just hope they're proud of themselves.

Labours problem is that it's a bit difficult to manufacture something without raw materials - and that material is the mindless witterings of a seemingly endless stream of cranks, conspiracy theorists, idiots and doubtless some very unpleasant individuals within its ranks.

If the leadership had the wit of a sheep it would thank God fasting that this storm blew up 4 years before a general election and may only effect some local elections that even the candidates will have forgotten about by 2020 - its a storm in a teacup, and while it will undoubtedly do Labour some damage, as it bloody well should, its better for labour that it happens now rather that 3 months before a general election...

 

[DotCommunist]

affect. And the point of capitalising on Livingstones twat speak right now is to undermine in the lead up to...todays locals. The labour right are just waiting for a shit showing to further the 'labour in crises' thing.

it is a bit of a clown car tbf, iron corbz needs to get his purge on

 

[Pickman's model]

affect. And the point of capitalising on Livingstones twat speak right now is to undermine in the lead up to...todays locals. The labour right are just waiting for a shit showing to further the 'labour in crises' thing.

it is a bit of a clown car tbf, iron corbz needs to get his purge on

No leader named jeremy has ever purged a party

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you think I have an agenda?

I hope you do.

 

[belboid]

No leader named jeremy has ever purged a party

dog owners do have to be a bit careful

 

[treelover]

I think Malik is spot on there.

With one caveat.

It doesn't apply to the whole of "the left" but rather to a certain noisy subset of it - that the likes of the SWP, Momentum, Left Unity, Respect etc. and their fellow travellers in Labour are good examples of.

That's not "the Left" though.

Then, as butchers mentioned there's the conspiracists who've infected other sections of the left (e.g. Occupy) in recent years.

Thats a fair amount of people if you include the 100,000(claimed) of Momentum, could you expand on whose is the left apart from them.

 

[treelover]

It's true it is the crackpots around the edge of the left who are the worst, and they have little to no actual influence. But I have often seen clearly anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists not being challenged by people, when if they had made other sorts of racist comments they would have been. I've also seen very clumsy anti-Israel rhetoric not being challenged, when other language is carefully policed - and this is more mainstream.

But still, I find myself annoyed at joining in the soul-searching at this particular moment, given it's all been sparked by a bunch of anti-Corbyn partisans who can't even do any soul-searching because they don't fucking have any souls. But as killer b says, there's just enough truth for the attack to work. There were a fair number of people on my fb feed who last week thought that the best use of their energy was to defend what Ken Livingstone said. That doesn't look pretty, particularly when I know they'd come down like a ton of bricks on any clumsily worded sentiments about immigration or muslims.

Yes, when what you say can see you removed from meetings,etc, this is glaring.

 

[treelover]

Interesting article:

How UK Labour moderates played the Jewish card, and why they used us to do it

from "the director of EIPA, a multi-disciplined pro-Israel advocacy Group based in Brussels"

points the finger for the entire plot squarely at the Blairites

Very interesting, should be circulated.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thats a fair amount of people if you include the 100,000(claimed) of Momentum, could you expand on whose is the left apart from them.

Not yours mate

 

[Pickman's model]

Very interesting, should be circulated.

Who would you circulate it to?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, when what you say can see you removed from meetings,etc, this is glaring.

What meetings have you been removed from?

 

[treelover]

Well if you look at what Jackie Walker actually said, it does smack of conspiratorial thinking of the type the left can well do without, and the type that definitely feeds into anti-Semitic discourse and justifies anti-Semitic beliefs, in a similar vein to "the Rothschilds caused the world wars and 9/11":



That sounds to me like an accusation that the Jews were responsible for the bloodshed in Africa to me.



Well as someone who has in one form or another been involved in "the left" for over a decade these groups have if not dominated had an omnipresence amongst anything that advocates a position to the left of the status quo. Some groups are worse for this than others, I do not need to mention the many fuck-ups that the SWP/Respect are responsible for, Momentum seems to be very much a mixed bag, in Manchester a friend tells me it is mostly a conspiraloon free zone but in other cities they many up a very loud minority to say the least, Cambridge Momentum particularly had a problem with such people. I was in Left Unity till the end of last year and we tried to position ourselves as being more sensible and in touch with the working class than the SWP et al. but we were forever tripping over ourselves and turned out to have multiple sects within a sect squabbling with each other. Then there was the debacle of the person who proposed we consider "the Islamic Caliphate" (i.e. Daesh) a progressive thing - it was only voted for by himself and the seconder, but it attracted unwanted negative attention nonetheless. However IME the people I know who are still in LU are still decent community campaigners.



Again IME they crop up depressingly often, Occupy Manchester became swamped by them and they also were a significant contingent of the anti-fracking campaigns here. They tend to currently campaign under the banner of "Wake up (town)!" - which possibly explains why they thankfully are not a major force in Manchester Momentum. But to sum up, I have learned that in the left you should not give such people an inch in case they take a mile - and often facepalm at the times when I see conspiratorial bullshit appearing on my FB news feed, even from relatively well balanced people.



They overran Occupy in many places outside of London - and there are signs they are going to try and do the same with Nuit Debout. The V-for-Vendetta brigade and the David Icke fan club (there is overlap between the two) tend to be out in force during major protests. The anti-fracking campaigns particularly attracted them like flies to a corpse. Going further back - and this is one of the more striking examples, they dragged Indymedia UK though a pile of stinking smelly dog shit and utterly discredited it as a credible news source (no thanks to certain members of the editorial collective in charge) - although even in its heyday a lot of the content coming from the newswire was iffy to say the least.

Edit to add: Also the Green Party did (and probably still very much does, if not more so now) have its fair share of kooks and cranks, and I am sure Urbanites remember Tony Gosling, the anti-Semitic, homophobic conspiraloon who frequently stood as a councillor as a Green before he was expelled in 2008 - and David Icke of course was once a prominent Green. Also they had their own controversies surrounding anti-Semitism too.

Good post.

 

[brogdale]

Thought it might be worth just clearing this up...then we can close the thread...

Israeli Justice Minister: It’s Anti-Semitic To Ever Criticize Israel

Israel’s...Justice Minister, Ayelet Shaked, equated criticism of Israel to anti-Semitism on Wednesday, in light of rising European support for the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (BDS).

“In the past, we saw European leaders speaking against the Jews. Now, we see them speaking against Israel. It is the same anti-Semitism of blood libels, spreading lies, distorting reality and brainwashing people into hating Israel and the Jews,” Shaked told the Washington Post. “Today, it is not politically correct to be anti-Semitic but being anti-Israeli is acceptable. People who have such anti-Semitic views should not be allowed to hold central leadership positions.”

 

[cantsin]

Do you think I have an agenda?

am sure we all do on way or t'other

 

[Cid]

Thought it might be worth just clearing this up...then we can close the thread...

Israeli Justice Minister: It’s Anti-Semitic To Ever Criticize Israel

​

Ayelet 'annexation' Shaked...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well if you look at what Jackie Walker actually said, it does smack of conspiratorial thinking of the type the left can well do without, and the type that definitely feeds into anti-Semitic discourse and justifies anti-Semitic beliefs, in a similar vein to "the Rothschilds caused the world wars and 9/11":

If someone believes that sort of thing, they are - perforce - lazy or stupid. Minor research of either historic event and what caused those events easily establish reality. Anything else is fantasy masquerading as "insider knowledge", and may or may not be "conspiratorial thinking".

That sounds to me like an accusation that the Jews were responsible for the bloodshed in Africa to me.

I disagree. It's a reasonably-accurate summation of a minor point of history, making the sort of point that could be deployed at, for example, the livery companies too- who also acted as financiers of merchant ventures that established and then perpetuated the triangular trade.
It's also accurate to say, however, that Jewish financiers were - as mostly smaller banking concerns - edged out into a more local market, brokering and raising loans for ships and cargoes, as the trade expanded.

Well as someone who has in one form or another been involved in "the left" for over a decade these groups have if not dominated had an omnipresence amongst anything that advocates a position to the left of the status quo. Some groups are worse for this than others, I do not need to mention the many fuck-ups that the SWP/Respect are responsible for, Momentum seems to be very much a mixed bag, in Manchester a friend tells me it is mostly a conspiraloon free zone but in other cities they make up a very loud minority to say the least, Cambridge Momentum particularly had a problem with such people. I was in Left Unity till the end of last year and we tried to position ourselves as being more sensible and in touch with the working class than the SWP et al. but we were forever tripping over ourselves and turned out to have multiple sects within a sect squabbling with each other. Then there was the debacle of the person who proposed we consider "the Islamic Caliphate" (i.e. Daesh) a progressive thing - it was only voted for by himself and the seconder, but it attracted unwanted negative attention nonetheless. However IME the people I know who are still in LU are still decent community campaigners.

Again IME they crop up depressingly often, Occupy Manchester became swamped by them and they also were a significant contingent of the anti-fracking campaigns here. They tend to currently campaign under the banner of "Wake up (town)!" - which possibly explains why they thankfully are not a major force in Manchester Momentum. But to sum up, I have learned that in the left you should not give such people an inch in case they take a mile - and often facepalm at the times when I see conspiratorial bullshit appearing on my FB news feed, even from relatively well balanced people.



They overran Occupy in many places outside of London - and there are signs they are going to try and do the same with Nuit Debout. The V-for-Vendetta brigade and the David Icke fan club (there is overlap between the two) tend to be out in force during major protests. The anti-fracking campaigns particularly attracted them like flies to a corpse. Going further back - and this is one of the more striking examples, they dragged Indymedia UK though a pile of stinking smelly dog shit and utterly discredited it as a credible news source (no thanks to certain members of the editorial collective in charge) - although even in its heyday a lot of the content coming from the newswire was iffy to say the least.

Edit to add: Also the Green Party did (and probably still very much does, if not more so now) have its fair share of kooks and cranks, and I am sure Urbanites remember Tony Gosling, the anti-Semitic, homophobic conspiraloon who frequently stood as a councillor as a Green before he was expelled in 2008 - and David Icke of course was once a prominent Green. Also they had their own controversies surrounding anti-Semitism too.

This is the rub of grass-roots democratic politics - the more inclusive you wish to be, the more likely you are to have to deal with the George Galloway and David Icke manques who hover on the fringes of both left and right.

 

[Sprocket.]

Is this latest response from Unite going to put the Tories on the defensive back foot as much as Labour has been lately?

Equality commission should examine 'dog-whistle' Conservative party beset by racism

http://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434) A4 Tory Racism Brochure SIN11-26629.pdf

 

[chilango]

Thats a fair amount of people if you include the 100,000(claimed) of Momentum, could you expand on whose is the left apart from them.

..well, all of those on the left who isn't in one of those groups. Obviously. The SP for a small example. Most of the class struggle anarchists. All the more libertarian socialist/communist types. Big chunks of the TUs.

More importantly though all of us who down the pub, at the school gate, in the workplace etc. would be seen by others as "left".

There's lots of us.

 

[J Ed]

Why is Ken Livingstone still on TV talking about Hitler? He was doing it again today on Sky News.

 

[DotCommunist]

Why is Ken Livingstone still on TV talking about Hitler? He was doing it again today on Sky News.

its clear that he just has to be right. And if that means mentioning hitler thrice daily then so be it

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Is this latest response from Unite going to put the Tories on the defensive back foot as much as Labour has been lately?

Equality commission should examine 'dog-whistle' Conservative party beset by racism

http://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434) A4 Tory Racism Brochure SIN11-26629.pdf

Unlikely to get as much help from the media clique ...

 

[J Ed]

its clear that he just has to be right. And if that means mentioning hitler thrice daily then so be it

Even the people who were monstering him don't give a shit anymore and want him to talk about something other than Hitler. It's just ridiculous.

 

[treelover]

Jewish father says he has been driven out of his East London home after being attacked thirty times in three years by racist asian thugs who screamed 'kill the Jew'

• Plaistow resident says the area is becoming hotbed of anti-Semitism
• 52-year-old says he has been repeated abused and attacked in public
• He was called 'an insult to Allah' and accused of 'invading our lands'
• He is now moving out because he fears he will be killed if he stays

Read more: Jewish father driven out of his London home by anti-Semitic attacks
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

This is really shocking, even removing the D/M approach, has there been any protests to support him, challlenge what has happened?, UAF over to you.

 

[killer b]

I'm not sure if UAF bother checking urban for suggested actions - why don't you email them?

 

[treelover]

Its rheotorical, we know they are hypocrities, any view on the incidents, from urbanites posting on here it would seem there are lots of anti-fascists in the area, maybe they could go round and support the guy.

btw, the DM's report is sensationalised, but something grim has happened there.