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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

Bernie Gunther said:
Sure, but if I recall right at least one of his books is just a collection of (rather damning) primary sources.

If those were some sort of "Protocols" style forgery I'd expect to find a lot of links to real historians saying so.
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Look on scholar where you'll find his Zionism in the age of the dictators cited by 102; click on the 102 to see who cited it. I'll c&p the contexts later.
 
I'll just chip this in, tell me what you think.

A lot of what we're seeing here - from the naive (IMO) belief that a set of demands that worked in the South African case can be transferred over to the Israeli/Palestinian case, without any acknowledgement of the fact that the differences between the two cases are as important as the parallels, to the idiotic "Hitler was a Zionist" shite, can be summed up as the work of people who don't want to think about the situation in a clear and detailed fashion. Well you do have to think about it.

As for Corbyn, I saw this on his twitter feed:



Good words, but they will have to be backed up with action. A party becomes strong by purging itself, as Lenin taught us.
 
Diamond said:
Listen - I have a close friend who spent two years converting from a Christian background to Judaism .In fact many Jews to this day would not regard him as a "yid" despite the fact that he was circumcised without any anaesthetic at the age of 31.

I went to his wedding - it was amazingly lavish.

And it was everything that antisemites hate.

And if my Muslim gf, who was not available, had attended you would have found it very confusing.
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You seem to have a wide circle of friends on which you're able to draw on as examples to back up any particular points you are trying to make here on urban.
Amazing.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Sure, but if I recall right at least one of his books is just a collection of (rather damning) primary sources.

If those were some sort of "Protocols" style forgery I'd expect to find a lot of links to real historians saying so.
Click to expand...
Link here quotes David Rosenberg, of the Jewish Socialist Group, describing it as 'tabloid history', and basically unreliable:

Benjamin Netanyahu and Lenni Brenner: What is Ken Livingstone basing his Hitler-Zionist comments on?

During the 1930s, some members of the Haganah visited Dublin and asked for, and got, advice on how to fight the British Empire. Does that mean that all Zionists are secretly Irish Republicans?
 
Idris2002 said:
Link here quotes David Rosenberg, of the Jewish Socialist Group, describing it as 'tabloid history', and basically unreliable:

Benjamin Netanyahu and Lenni Brenner: What is Ken Livingstone basing his Hitler-Zionist comments on?

During the 1930s, some members of the Haganah visited Dublin and asked for, and got, advice on how to fight the British Empire. Does that mean that all Zionists are secretly Irish Republicans?
Click to expand...

Sure, Ken's comments were clearly witless, but I seem to recall (Brenner's stuff used to be on marxists.de) that he made a somewhat persuasive and referenced, albeit polemical, case for e.g. quasi-fascist tendencies within pre-war revisionist zionism.

What I found online though was mostly furious zionists comparing Brenner with holocaust deniers rather than substantially challenging his content.

So I'd really like to see a proper critique from real historians showing that e.g. he's some sort of Trot version of David Irving as the Harry's Place crowd are claiming this morning.

Edited to add the 'Ken was witless' bit ...
 
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Bernie Gunther said:
Sure, but I seem to recall (Brenner's stuff used to be on marxists.de) that he made a somewhat persuasive and referenced, albeit polemical, case for e.g. quasi-fascist tendencies within pre-war revisionist zionism.

What I found online though was mostly furious zionists comparing Brenner with holocaust deniers rather than substantially challenging his content.

So I'd really like to see a proper critique from real historians showing that e.g. he's some sort of Trot version of David Irving as the Harry's Place crowd are claiming this morning.
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I think a better comparison is finklestein in the days when he was ignored, couldn't get his books and work reviewed, get academic work or find influential publishers, in fact was under an informal boycott and was painted as a holocaust denier and Irving style crackpot. And that was for a very very long time.
 
Idris2002 said:
I'll just chip this in, tell me what you think.

A lot of what we're seeing here - from the naive (IMO) belief that a set of demands that worked in the South African case can be transferred over to the Israeli/Palestinian case, without any acknowledgement of the fact that the differences between the two cases are as important as the parallels, to the idiotic "Hitler was a Zionist" shite, can be summed up as the work of people who don't want to think about the situation in a clear and detailed fashion. Well you do have to think about it.

As for Corbyn, I saw this on his twitter feed:



Good words, but they will have to be backed up with action. A party becomes strong by purging itself, as Lenin taught us.
Click to expand...

Laxatives all round
 
I can tell you a lot more detail about my pal - personal trainer/stabbed several times on an underground train in Brixton when around 21/now an estate agent in North London if he likes...
 
Oh, and just to be clear, he was not a Jew then. He was simply a bloke trying to stop a fight and got way out of his depth.
 
So where to now? All the whowaswhat and whosaidwhat doesn't alter the fact that the Israelis are now there and the Palestinians are where they are. My use of these terms is just a shorthand, it has no special significance. The support that each faction within these two camps has is also a reality.

You can rake over the ashes of history all you like and I'm not saying you shouldn't but I'm not seeing any way forward. For example, some kind of cantonic secular state in the region isn't going to happen.

Could you stop your discussions for a moment and indulge me with a few solutions that might even partly work? You're all obviously clued up on the background and I'd genuinely be interested.
 
JuanTwoThree said:
So where to now? All the whowaswhat and whosaidwhat doesn't alter the fact that the Israelis are now there and the Palestinians are where they are. My use of these terms is just a shorthand, it has no special significance. The support that each faction within these two camps has is also a reality.

You can rake over the ashes of history all you like and I'm not saying you shouldn't but I'm not seeing any way forward. For example, some kind of cantonic secular state in the region isn't going to happen.

Could you stop your discussions for a moment and indulge me with a few solutions that might even partly work? You're all obviously clued up on the background and I'd genuinely be interested.
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A single, secular, state of Palestine, with a full right of return for all those driven out, and their families. Bog standard stuff.
 
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