In a moment of stupid hope, I left a polite comment on the JVL website about Chris Williamson's promotion of Vanessa Beeley. I didn't accuse him of antisemitism or anything, just a sort of "hey, be wary of this guy". It got deleted of course. Defending Chris Williamson was all part of the greater good ie. defending allies of Corbyn against attacks from the right. It's not about the technicalities of whether or not the specific grounds of his suspension were valid, that was never the motivation. I mean come on, obviously.
Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
cantsin
Well-Known Member
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think that i know the reason why someone who doesn't think an anti-semitic mural that Jeremy Corbyn recognises as anti-semitic, and who made his original inability to see it as anti-semitic an example of the ways in which labour members may not be able to recognise or identify the changing nature of contemporary anti-semitism and its symbols, and would therefore need training to overcome this failure, would seek to obsessively make a case that one trivial over reaction and an accusation of anti-semitism should stand for all such accusations of anti-semitism.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Although I think I know. It’s because you’re a tribal
But it’s depressing that after all this time some people are still in deny, defend and excuse mode. It does pretty much prove the point.
Yes, I agree.
But it’s depressing that after all this time some people are still in deny, defend and excuse mode. It does pretty much prove the point.
Because
1. Stephen Solley isn't an anti Semite
2. There was nothing in his email that was remotely anti Semitic
3. He's a relatively prominent individual with a high public profile
4. Mirwich, likewise has a public profile with political ambitions, so knew that her behaviour could have consequences for her political ambitions
5. Solley's email to Mirwich was prompted by her assertions that she face anti Semitism on a daily basis, which assertion he as an 80 year old Jewish man regarded as ridiculous and offensive, so his opinion is in itself of interest in this whole discussion
6. That Mirwich, knowing full well who Solley was, and knowing that her complaint was false and malicious, felt empowered and emboldened enough to make the most hurtful, scandalous and outrageous allegations about him, not just to the Labour Party, but to the Bar Council and to his former chambers. Her attitude and behaviour raises questions about how many other such complaints and allegations are as spurious as this one
7. That we only know about this because Solley has ignored the Labour Party's instruction not to make the issue public. This case has therefore help shine a light on matters that are otherwise not open to public scrutiny.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The 'all this time' bit is interesting. Rummo claims to have been involved in left politics for 40+ years. Which makes me wonder, has he recently gone off or was this element always there on this labour left? It was 36 years ago that Steve Cohen wrote That's Funny You Don't. Look Anti-Semitic: An anti-racist analysis of left anti-semitism based on. Has their anti-semitism developed from the traditional stuff, or is is still trapped in the old style stuff which is why they - like many well meaning liberal/left/labour types - cannot see modern anti-semitism. Modern anti-semitism not being kosher anti-semitism sort of thing.
Not necessarily anything to do with rummo, but I suspect they often can't see it because they don't know any/very many jews, and they pick and choose the jewish voices they pay attention to (Rosen, Margoyles, JVL... that's more or less it) - so it's all theory. It's worth noting that there seems to have been some movement on this thread in the last couple of days, on the back of some personal anecdotes from bimble & froggie - I think lots of people just haven't had people they know and trust saying 'this is how this impacts on us'.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
Yep - repeated personal testimony, cold hard evidence ( often screenshotted, and, not afraid to admit it, often from likes of Gnasher - plus the very rare IRL episode ) of the scale of crankery / AS in Labour over those years has been irrefutable ( though also often amplified / weaponised by predominantly non Jewish players) , and discovering ( via here ) the likes of Beeley, ' the anti imperialism of fools' , and how that feeds into AS orbit etc : all have been eye opening / attitude changing.
( ps : am aware I probably need to act more like it )
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I have no idea what was going through Mirwich’s head. I’ve never heard of her before you brought her up.
What I do know is that anyone using this obscure and trivial incident as such a totem as you do is an unhinged monomaniac.
It's neither obscure nor trivial.
I think you find it uncomfortable because it challenges your opinions and your mindset and that's why you wish to marginalise and dismiss it.
So maybe gives some thought to what Mirwich might actually have been thinking when she decided to make her accusations. Indulge in some conjecture. Even if only as an intellectual exercise.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
You could read what I already said several times, you know. By reading my posts.
He doesn’t seem to have been antisemitic. She appears to have over reacted.
If you want to know why she did (and like I say I’m not a mind reader), being Jewish during this maelstrom has probably been very uncomfortable. Maybe she was frazzled by it all and over reacted. Who knows.
So, that’s one incident dealt with.
If you want to know my opinion on the wider issues, read this. I wrote it.
Identity politics and anti-Semitism on the left - Anarchist Communist Group
Bakunin wrote, in The Capitalist System, “What is it that brings the capitalist to the market? It is the urge to get rich, to increase his capital, to gratify his ambitions and social vanities, to be able to indulge in all conceivable pleasures. And what brings the worker to the market? Hunger...
www.anarchistcommunism.org
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
That's a fine piece of work there, DannyYou could read what I already said several times, you know. By reading my posts.
He doesn’t seem to have been antisemitic. She appears to have over reacted.
If you want to know why she did (and like I say I’m not a mind reader), being Jewish during this maelstrom has probably been very uncomfortable. Maybe she was frazzled by it all and over reacted. Who knows.
So, that’s one incident dealt with.
If you want to know my opinion on the wider issues, read this. I wrote it.
Identity politics and anti-Semitism on the left - Anarchist Communist Group
Bakunin wrote, in The Capitalist System, “What is it that brings the capitalist to the market? It is the urge to get rich, to increase his capital, to gratify his ambitions and social vanities, to be able to indulge in all conceivable pleasures. And what brings the worker to the market? Hunger...
Thanks for posting it up.
You could read what I already said several times, you know. By reading my posts.
He doesn’t seem to have been antisemitic. She appears to have over reacted.
If you want to know why she did (and like I say I’m not a mind reader), being Jewish during this maelstrom has probably been very uncomfortable. Maybe she was frazzled by it all and over reacted. Who knows.
If you want to know my opinion on the wider issues, read this. I wrote it.
Identity politics and anti-Semitism on the left - Anarchist Communist Group
Bakunin wrote, in The Capitalist System, “What is it that brings the capitalist to the market? It is the urge to get rich, to increase his capital, to gratify his ambitions and social vanities, to be able to indulge in all conceivable pleasures. And what brings the worker to the market? Hunger...
'Maybe she was frazzled by it all and over reacted. Who knows.
So, that’s one incident dealt with.'
Are there any other interpretations of her actions that occur to you which might not sit so comfortably with your settled views?
Because if there are, the incident isn't dealt with.
bimble
floofy
It’s getting a bit weird now. Maybe a Jewish woman hurt your feelings when you were 12 or something.
Why don’t you just spell it out.
she behaved like that towards Stephen Solley QC because ...
?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Spit it out.
Because she felt she could?
Because she thought she could get away with doing so without any adverse consequences even though she knew the complaints were vindictive, baseless, without any justification whatsoever?
Because she was more concerned with exaggerating the extent of anti Semitism in the Labour Party than with dealing with actual anti Semitism in the Labour Party or in society as a whole?
Because she objected to Solley's views on Israel/Palestinian rights?
Because she regarded Solley's views on Israel/Palestinian rights as anti Semitic?
Lots of possibilities, most of them more credible than 'oh she was a a bit upset and maybe over reacted a little bit.'
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
And if she was being opportunist, what wider lesson do you draw from it?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Is it " the scale of the problem was dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party"?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I’ll spell this out again for you, rummo , you total zoomer. Nobody has ever said false accusations aren’t made. I for one had long, long, long criticised the disingenuous labelling by some of all opposition to Israeli policy as antisemitic. As you would know if you bothered finding out.
The point is - and this is the biggie so pay attention - if your first response to the existence of any prejudice, racism, whatever it might be, is “sometimes it’s not true”, then you are (one is) a massive knobend and probably a bit prejudiced that way yourself,
Is that clear enough?
Move it away from Jewish people and apply it to other situations. Rape allegations. Any other form of racism. Any thing. Try it out. “Ah but”. How does it look?
Tadger.
The point is - and this is the biggie so pay attention - if your first response to the existence of any prejudice, racism, whatever it might be, is “sometimes it’s not true”, then you are (one is) a massive knobend and probably a bit prejudiced that way yourself,
Is that clear enough?
Move it away from Jewish people and apply it to other situations. Rape allegations. Any other form of racism. Any thing. Try it out. “Ah but”. How does it look?
Tadger.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
And the hooked noses on the mural could have been Alf Garnet.
That piece would get you exposed as an anti-semite on my side of the Tamar.You could read what I already said several times, you know. By reading my posts.
He doesn’t seem to have been antisemitic. She appears to have over reacted.
If you want to know why she did (and like I say I’m not a mind reader), being Jewish during this maelstrom has probably been very uncomfortable. Maybe she was frazzled by it all and over reacted. Who knows.
So, that’s one incident dealt with.
If you want to know my opinion on the wider issues, read this. I wrote it.
Identity politics and anti-Semitism on the left - Anarchist Communist Group
Bakunin wrote, in The Capitalist System, “What is it that brings the capitalist to the market? It is the urge to get rich, to increase his capital, to gratify his ambitions and social vanities, to be able to indulge in all conceivable pleasures. And what brings the worker to the market? Hunger...
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Probably. Which kind of makes you wonder just what you have to do to please these Corbynist denialists.
Oh dear. You sound upset.
How about the FIRST response to allegations of anti Semitism is to investigate and deal with them?
And then how about the SECOND response, possibly running concurrently with the FIRST response, should be to say 'hang on, there's something amiss here. There's obviously many, many spurious allegations being made quite shamelessly and they appear to being made for factional/political reasons. Why is this happening? We must find out and we must put a stop to it because it is causing undue alarm to Jewish people, it is damaging the Labour Party to the advantage of the Tories and their allies and it is grossly unfair to those who have been unjustly accused?
Concurrently? Why not just do away with number one completely?
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