Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I've been reading and not posting.
I'd say that there has been a surprising amount of consensus on this thread from posters I respect - both jewish and non-jewish and both inside and outside of the labour party. It has slightly changed my way of thinking about this and I can see that the mantra of "Yes but" is not a good way to go.
I think that's good but it isn't scaleable because unfortunately that would mean having the same conversation over and over and over again. And nobody sensible can be bothered with that.
I'd say that there has been a surprising amount of consensus on this thread from posters I respect - both jewish and non-jewish and both inside and outside of the labour party. It has slightly changed my way of thinking about this and I can see that the mantra of "Yes but" is not a good way to go.
I think that's good but it isn't scaleable because unfortunately that would mean having the same conversation over and over and over again. And nobody sensible can be bothered with that.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Ditto, been reading the thread, but not able to summon the patience to post or like all the sense that's being posted, but I appreciate those that have been putting the time and thought into posting the politically coherent and sound stuff, cheers. (That's not you rummo just for clarity.)
It would be good if progress was made on this issue in the Labour Party (not necessarily for the Labour Party's sake). And I don't think it will be via disciplinary measures, but by educational measures. But that will look like JLM doing all the education with little nuggets about what you can and can't say about Israel with the JVL standing outside shouting about it. I don't see it working. It won't be bimble/frogwoman/madeinmedlam nudging things in the right direction.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
If I don’t have to think about antisemtism ever again and can go back to thinking about things I prefer thinking/campaigning about I would be a mazel dicker yid
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
On the BOD etc - I've noticed myself being defensive about these institutions in a way I wouldn't necessarily under 'normal' circumstances despite some of their issues. You end up seeing it all as part of the same 'thing'. There is an antisemitic current in every political party in the UK from far left to centrist/liberal to the right, and antisemitic attacks have been increasing year on year since the 2010s.
Antisemitism also empowers the most reactionary and conservative forces in the Jewish community, many of whom are currently engaged in trying to set up alternatives to the mainstream Jewish bodies because they think they are too left wing. Ive seen this happen, I've seen mates drawn into getting too close to right wing groups like that Gnasher Jew and so on because they are the only ones who appear to take it seriously. The BOD copped alot of criticism from such groups because they were even talking to labour MPs without demanding they leave at one point.
I'm a non/ by many definitions 'anti' Zionist jew btw although I seldom use the word or identify as such because it has so many connotations to it. It doesn't help us when every fucking thing you say in terms of a criticism of things you don't like and want to change is going to be picked up on and used by people who want you dead. I've held back from saying stuff about Israel publically because I am worried going to be used like that- 'see she's a jew and she agrees with me that the BOD are a bunch of cunts' sort of stuff.
You are worried about Jews being treated badly for being anti Zionists? You don't think the BOD represents everyone properly? Good. Neither do I. Enough already with the concern trolling, these issues would be far easier to resolve and those discussions much easier to have in and out of the Jewish community if we weren't dealing with a tidal wave of antisemitic shit and potentially having our words twisted to suit it.
Antisemitism also empowers the most reactionary and conservative forces in the Jewish community, many of whom are currently engaged in trying to set up alternatives to the mainstream Jewish bodies because they think they are too left wing. Ive seen this happen, I've seen mates drawn into getting too close to right wing groups like that Gnasher Jew and so on because they are the only ones who appear to take it seriously. The BOD copped alot of criticism from such groups because they were even talking to labour MPs without demanding they leave at one point.
I'm a non/ by many definitions 'anti' Zionist jew btw although I seldom use the word or identify as such because it has so many connotations to it. It doesn't help us when every fucking thing you say in terms of a criticism of things you don't like and want to change is going to be picked up on and used by people who want you dead. I've held back from saying stuff about Israel publically because I am worried going to be used like that- 'see she's a jew and she agrees with me that the BOD are a bunch of cunts' sort of stuff.
You are worried about Jews being treated badly for being anti Zionists? You don't think the BOD represents everyone properly? Good. Neither do I. Enough already with the concern trolling, these issues would be far easier to resolve and those discussions much easier to have in and out of the Jewish community if we weren't dealing with a tidal wave of antisemitic shit and potentially having our words twisted to suit it.
Last edited:
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I disagree with your first point. I’m sadly inclined to agree with your second.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Important points. Thanks.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Hello all, and chag sameach to those who are celebrating. Long-time listener (long enough to gather that this place isn't necessarily very welcoming to new posters), first-time caller here. I had pretty much decided I would probably go through life without ever actually signing up to use urban75, and was fine with that, but there has been a lot of speculating about what jews must be thinking and how jews must be feeling over the last few pages*, and a lot of it is quite heavily at odds with my own perspective, so.
By way of introduction, I'm a Jewish anarchist (or libertarian communist or whatever, but most of the alternatives sound even more wanky), have no particular love for Corbyn, think that a Corbyn government would have been cold rainy Syriza at best, spent the Corbyn era banging on about what local Labour councils were actually doing and so on. I do have close relatives who I care about dearly who are JVL supporters - not because they're mad Assadist hospital bombers who luv Chris Williamson or whatever, but because JVL seem to be the main organised group of Jews who are outspokenly defensive of the social democratic redistributive policies associated with Corbyn and of the possibility of there being criticism of Israel that's not automatically antisemitic. I don't agree with everything they say, but I also think it's not a good place if "we" start treating those people as the enemy.
In passing, one thing that I've thought for the last few years, and seems very relevant now, is that if you approach this primarily as a rift within the left then obviously The Enemy are the cranks, crank-enablers, crank-defenders, crank-defender-defenders and so on. In contrast, if you approach this primarily as a rift within "the Jewish community", if your main antagonist is like your tory Zionist relative who you see once a year at seder or people you speak to at synagogue if you go to that, then you're more likely to see The Enemy as being people making dodgy bad faith criticisms of Labour, or as Zionists or the BoD or whoever. I think this has probably helped play into the not very helpful dynamics we've seen over the last few years.
I had thought that pretty much everyone with any sense was agreed that two things are true at once, both that (left) antisemitism exists and that it has been cynically weaponised by centrist wronguns, not too far from what Corbyn said in that apology. Like, the ACG statement mentioned above mentions:
"In the so-called left’s anti-Semitism morass, there are three strands that some people seem to find it difficult to disentangle.
1. The disingenuous labelling of all criticism of the Israeli state, its actions and policies, as necessarily anti-Semitic.
2. The actual anti-Semitism that exists on the left, often associated with Palestinian solidarity (which does not have to be in itself anti-Semitic); the blind eye turned to it; the dodgy alliances thereby arrived at.
3. The use made of both of the above by anti-Corbyn forces inside and outside of the Labour Party."
In this thread, it sort of seems like people are moving towards a position where if you mention 1 and 3, you're automatically doing bad whataboutery and denialism, and I really don't think that's helpful? Like, are we just supposed to forget about all the shit over the last few years, that Daily Mail stuff about Corbyn pronouncing Epstein antisemitically and Jonathan Freedland smearing Majid Mahmood and all the rest of it, and anyone who mentions it is automatically suspect and should be fucked off?
It's really surpising to me to see people saying that they've become more defensive of the BoD, because I feel like I've had exactly the same response towards JVL. If anything, this has really sharpened up my critique of "community leadership" and similar rubbish - I kind of acquired it secondhand through things like the AYM/Kenan Malik critique of Asian communalism and the critiques of Black counterinsurgency that have come out of the US riots over the past decade or so, but I feel it a lot more deeply after seeing the BoD pull shit like "you're not allowed to talk to Jews who don't like us" as part of their ten demands during the Labour leadership contest.
Finally (I mean I could keep going but I think I've said enough for the time being), in terms of wanting to defend the possibility of political space in between Gnasher Jew and Williamson, how do people feel about Jewdas at the moment? Like, I think they have decent cred in terms of combating left antisemitism and saying that the Williamson/Galloway/Livingstone lot should be fucked off since before it was cool. They're also a lot more Corbyn defence-ist than the emerging consensus on this thread seems to be. Like, I don't agree with them 100%, you wouldn't catch me inviting Corbyn to my seder, but I'm probably closer to them than any other existing Jewish political current. Do people think they're apologist-denier types? Or is their position like a legit one that people can reasonably have even if it can be argued with?
* in passing, one of the things to be learned from all this is how hard it is for people to avoid doing some kind of identity politics, even the ones who are most outspokenly against it.
By way of introduction, I'm a Jewish anarchist (or libertarian communist or whatever, but most of the alternatives sound even more wanky), have no particular love for Corbyn, think that a Corbyn government would have been cold rainy Syriza at best, spent the Corbyn era banging on about what local Labour councils were actually doing and so on. I do have close relatives who I care about dearly who are JVL supporters - not because they're mad Assadist hospital bombers who luv Chris Williamson or whatever, but because JVL seem to be the main organised group of Jews who are outspokenly defensive of the social democratic redistributive policies associated with Corbyn and of the possibility of there being criticism of Israel that's not automatically antisemitic. I don't agree with everything they say, but I also think it's not a good place if "we" start treating those people as the enemy.
In passing, one thing that I've thought for the last few years, and seems very relevant now, is that if you approach this primarily as a rift within the left then obviously The Enemy are the cranks, crank-enablers, crank-defenders, crank-defender-defenders and so on. In contrast, if you approach this primarily as a rift within "the Jewish community", if your main antagonist is like your tory Zionist relative who you see once a year at seder or people you speak to at synagogue if you go to that, then you're more likely to see The Enemy as being people making dodgy bad faith criticisms of Labour, or as Zionists or the BoD or whoever. I think this has probably helped play into the not very helpful dynamics we've seen over the last few years.
I had thought that pretty much everyone with any sense was agreed that two things are true at once, both that (left) antisemitism exists and that it has been cynically weaponised by centrist wronguns, not too far from what Corbyn said in that apology. Like, the ACG statement mentioned above mentions:
"In the so-called left’s anti-Semitism morass, there are three strands that some people seem to find it difficult to disentangle.
1. The disingenuous labelling of all criticism of the Israeli state, its actions and policies, as necessarily anti-Semitic.
2. The actual anti-Semitism that exists on the left, often associated with Palestinian solidarity (which does not have to be in itself anti-Semitic); the blind eye turned to it; the dodgy alliances thereby arrived at.
3. The use made of both of the above by anti-Corbyn forces inside and outside of the Labour Party."
In this thread, it sort of seems like people are moving towards a position where if you mention 1 and 3, you're automatically doing bad whataboutery and denialism, and I really don't think that's helpful? Like, are we just supposed to forget about all the shit over the last few years, that Daily Mail stuff about Corbyn pronouncing Epstein antisemitically and Jonathan Freedland smearing Majid Mahmood and all the rest of it, and anyone who mentions it is automatically suspect and should be fucked off?
It's really surpising to me to see people saying that they've become more defensive of the BoD, because I feel like I've had exactly the same response towards JVL. If anything, this has really sharpened up my critique of "community leadership" and similar rubbish - I kind of acquired it secondhand through things like the AYM/Kenan Malik critique of Asian communalism and the critiques of Black counterinsurgency that have come out of the US riots over the past decade or so, but I feel it a lot more deeply after seeing the BoD pull shit like "you're not allowed to talk to Jews who don't like us" as part of their ten demands during the Labour leadership contest.
Finally (I mean I could keep going but I think I've said enough for the time being), in terms of wanting to defend the possibility of political space in between Gnasher Jew and Williamson, how do people feel about Jewdas at the moment? Like, I think they have decent cred in terms of combating left antisemitism and saying that the Williamson/Galloway/Livingstone lot should be fucked off since before it was cool. They're also a lot more Corbyn defence-ist than the emerging consensus on this thread seems to be. Like, I don't agree with them 100%, you wouldn't catch me inviting Corbyn to my seder, but I'm probably closer to them than any other existing Jewish political current. Do people think they're apologist-denier types? Or is their position like a legit one that people can reasonably have even if it can be argued with?
* in passing, one of the things to be learned from all this is how hard it is for people to avoid doing some kind of identity politics, even the ones who are most outspokenly against it.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Thanks for your contribution there hitmouse . It deserves a bit of thought and proper attention. I've been meaning to respond at some length to some of the recent posting, I hope constructively, but I've had to spend most of my time trying to help out with a suicidal relative. I've only had the time to read other people's postings and contributing to other more light hearted threads (for my own sanity). Welcome aboard, anyhow.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
hitmouse first thanks for your post. To be honest I'm not even hugely against identity politics in the way a lot of people here are . That's one of the reasons I haven't always felt comfortable posting here and don't go near a lot of discussions because there's a lot that can sometimes hide behind 'opposition to idpol' especially in relation to stuff like feminism and transphobia. If I want to know about how bad id politics is I can just watch youtube and find 'cringe compilations' and 'lol #triggered' type memes. 
I tend to turn off these days when I see people going on about the evils of it even though there are some more nuanced criticisms.
there was a lot I agreed with in that acg statement but didn't agree with all of it, possibly for different reasons to you though. Same goes for Jewdas although I don't really pay much attention to what they're doing these days.
I know exactly how bad it is falling out with family members over that stuff. I have got cousins I fell out with over Israel in 2009 and didn't speak to for several years, completely cut em off in 2014 and only started speaking to them again over lockdown. I spent a lot of time as an activist in my teens and early 20s and I did experience antisemitism and a lot of it fucked me up, I've experienced it since from people I thought were ok too. I'm also very used to being 'the only jew' in a lot of social situations having grown up somewhere where there are hardly any Jews and having to deal with all that shit.
I am happy to carry on this in a pm as I feel this needs proper attention but this is getting into a lot of personal stuff tbh. but I'll say that I don't see this primarily as a 'dispute on the left' and I think seeing it as such has been incredibly damaging.
Edited to add: I don't see the important part of it as a dispute within the community either, although that's partly a consequence and to some extent has been occurring concurrently. It's kinda complicated but basically I think what's happening in labour is a symptom of a systematic issue in society. To be honest I am a bit drained from thinking about all this plus massive stress at work, and don't really have the energy to reply properly to all your points at the moment but feel free to pm me or something and I'll reply.
I tend to turn off these days when I see people going on about the evils of it even though there are some more nuanced criticisms.there was a lot I agreed with in that acg statement but didn't agree with all of it, possibly for different reasons to you though. Same goes for Jewdas although I don't really pay much attention to what they're doing these days.
I know exactly how bad it is falling out with family members over that stuff. I have got cousins I fell out with over Israel in 2009 and didn't speak to for several years, completely cut em off in 2014 and only started speaking to them again over lockdown. I spent a lot of time as an activist in my teens and early 20s and I did experience antisemitism and a lot of it fucked me up, I've experienced it since from people I thought were ok too. I'm also very used to being 'the only jew' in a lot of social situations having grown up somewhere where there are hardly any Jews and having to deal with all that shit.
I am happy to carry on this in a pm as I feel this needs proper attention but this is getting into a lot of personal stuff tbh. but I'll say that I don't see this primarily as a 'dispute on the left' and I think seeing it as such has been incredibly damaging.
Edited to add: I don't see the important part of it as a dispute within the community either, although that's partly a consequence and to some extent has been occurring concurrently. It's kinda complicated but basically I think what's happening in labour is a symptom of a systematic issue in society. To be honest I am a bit drained from thinking about all this plus massive stress at work, and don't really have the energy to reply properly to all your points at the moment but feel free to pm me or something and I'll reply.
Last edited:
bimble
floofy
Gold standard lurking hitmouse, glad you're here.
I think mostly what's happened in the last few pages is best understood against the backdrop of the previous 160 (which consisted mostly of endless variants of 1 and 3 - its just silencing legit criticism of the Israeli state & weaponisation by 'our enemies' ), so there might be a bit of oversteer by way of trying to find a way forward, if you know what i mean. Am not good at car analogies. I don't think anyone is denying that 1 & 3 are real things or important parts of the story of what's been going on.
And Jewdas seem alright, i went to a thing of theirs in a pub couple of years ago and tbh it made me feel a bit old, the people there were all (i think) in their twenties, which obvs not a problem and i'm glad they exist.
They give good meme but this piece of writing published by them was properly useful imo. Not that i agree with every line but the basic dynamic it diagnoses is spot on imo.
I think mostly what's happened in the last few pages is best understood against the backdrop of the previous 160 (which consisted mostly of endless variants of 1 and 3 - its just silencing legit criticism of the Israeli state & weaponisation by 'our enemies' ), so there might be a bit of oversteer by way of trying to find a way forward, if you know what i mean. Am not good at car analogies. I don't think anyone is denying that 1 & 3 are real things or important parts of the story of what's been going on.
And Jewdas seem alright, i went to a thing of theirs in a pub couple of years ago and tbh it made me feel a bit old, the people there were all (i think) in their twenties, which obvs not a problem and i'm glad they exist.
They give good meme but this piece of writing published by them was properly useful imo. Not that i agree with every line but the basic dynamic it diagnoses is spot on imo.
Last edited:
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Honestly im not much of a fan of whoever does Jewdas's social media recently and tbh I often find some aspects of their type of 'Jewish leftist' scene quite alienating although I fully appreciate it's largely to do with me and not necessarily to do with their politics. However they've produced some useful stuff (that piece is one I've not read before, will read it later).
i wasn't saying there's no problems with the BOD etc, the opposite in fact, but the wider societal context means it is often difficult/impossible to even start to talk about those sort of criticisms. yeah it's true about the community organisations often being dominated by right wingers and suffering from a lack of representation, and they've done some eye wateringly bad things, but that whole conversation would be, and was, much easier to have a couple years ago without a context of rapidly rising levels of antisemitism across society all the way from social media harassment all the way up to physical attacks.
Will say tho a lot of that 'wrong type of Jews' chat really irritates me for reasons I can't fully articulate at the moment, mostly because its early and I've not had much sleep. I hope you stick around tho.
i wasn't saying there's no problems with the BOD etc, the opposite in fact, but the wider societal context means it is often difficult/impossible to even start to talk about those sort of criticisms. yeah it's true about the community organisations often being dominated by right wingers and suffering from a lack of representation, and they've done some eye wateringly bad things, but that whole conversation would be, and was, much easier to have a couple years ago without a context of rapidly rising levels of antisemitism across society all the way from social media harassment all the way up to physical attacks.
Will say tho a lot of that 'wrong type of Jews' chat really irritates me for reasons I can't fully articulate at the moment, mostly because its early and I've not had much sleep. I hope you stick around tho.
Last edited:
December 2013, by which point Corbyn was a member of the Palestine Live facebook group run by and crawling with extreme anti-semites.
This is a really good piece, thanks.Gold standard lurking hitmouse, glad you're here.
I think mostly what's happened in the last few pages is best understood against the backdrop of the previous 160 (which consisted mostly of endless variants of 1 and 3 - its just silencing legit criticism of the Israeli state & weaponisation by 'our enemies' ), so there might be a bit of oversteer by way of trying to find a way forward, if you know what i mean. Am not good at car analogies. I don't think anyone is denying that 1 & 3 are real things or important parts of the story of what's been going on.
And Jewdas seem alright, i went to a thing of theirs in a pub couple of years ago and tbh it made me feel a bit old, the people there were all (i think) in their twenties, which obvs not a problem and i'm glad they exist.
They give good meme but this piece of writing published by them was properly useful imo. Not that i agree with every line but the basic dynamic it diagnoses is spot on imo.
Quick reminder
cantsin
Well-Known Member
looked it all up to refresh memory - JC claimed to have been added to the group :
"The Palestine Live group was founded in 2013 and was set up in a way that allowed administrators to add people to the group without their consent. It is understood that Corbyn believes he may have been added to the group by an acquaintance, who simultaneously added him as a Facebook friend when he was a backbench MP. "
Labour suspends party members in 'antisemitic' Facebook group
Jeremy Corbyn was active in closed group Palestine Live but says he did not see offensive posts and left in 2015
which may have sounded thin, if it wasn't for the fact that D Collier did some serious searching / researching, and didn't come up with a single like, comment or share from Corbyn that he felt warranted attention. Bearing in mind the total lack of attention focused on Corbyn 2013 ( when PL FB launched ) to 2015, ie : he had no need to moderate his own actions etc, his minimal activity on there does bear out the idea he was added / not active etc.
Last edited:
Treacle Toes
Time
Her own experiences? Things she has seen, heard and read. FFs give this up already!
I don't think anyone here hasn't acknowledged the damage that false accusations' and weaponised accusations can do generally/has done in particular cases, both in terms of the ability deal with actual antisemitism on the Left and the ability to educate those who have fallen foul of antisemitic thinking because they're not up to speed with contemporary forms of it....yet here you are banging the same drum and minimising it, again?
Last edited:
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Oh yeah, I also don't think "identity politics" is that useful of a term. I was just thinking about how even people who do tend to define themselves as being anti-idpol end up having to deal with the relationship of identity to politics in some way or another, so I think the term tends to be used in some quite slippery and inconsistent ways. Obviously we can all agree that there are instances of people using arguments about identity in shit and manipulative ways, but I think it's more useful to be specific about what those are instead of just saying "idpol" and expecting that everyone understands the same thing.hitmouse first thanks for your post. To be honest I'm not even hugely against identity politics in the way a lot of people here are . That's one of the reasons I haven't always felt comfortable posting here and don't go near a lot of discussions because there's a lot that can sometimes hide behind 'opposition to idpol' especially in relation to stuff like feminism and transphobia. If I want to know about how bad id politics is I can just watch youtube and find 'cringe compilations' and 'lol #triggered' type memes.
Yeah, feel free to PM. If I understand you properly, I think I totally agree with you, obviously arguments within the left/Labour or whatever aren't separated off from the rest of society. I was just kind of thinking about the way that people subjectively experience it, like if you mainly experience this stuff in the context of discussions with other lefties then that's a different experience to mainly having discussions about it with other jews, and the things that annoy you will be different. Totally appreciate how draining this stuff can be.
I mean, I wouldn't really use that term myself, but I can see where it comes from, there has been a lot of people making declarations about "here's what The Jews are thinking", or the Jewish community or whatever, and if you don't fit into that then there is inevitably a kind of "well what am I then?" reaction. I can see your point, it's just kind of interesting to me that I've ended up feeling that way about to some extent about Labour, and Jewish Labour leftists in particular - I have a lot of criticisms of them, but I find myself feeling less critical and more defensive at a time when it feels like there's a push to make them illegitimate.
It's tricky, like I understand everyone here hates Suella Braverman and Boris Johnson, and so it should be possible to have conversations about specifically left antisemitism here without needing to say "well don't you think Suella Braverman and Viktor Orban are bad as well?" every five seconds, but there is something a bit crazymaking about how non-Labour/left antisemitism gets disappeared in the wider media conversation about these issues, so I can't really blame anyone who ends up just kind of running around shouting like "what about the Common Sense Group?" even if that's not really a helpful or productive thing to do.
In passing, was recommended this recently, written for a US audience and probably not really saying much that people on here won't already be familiar with, but came across as reasonably fair to me: The Tragedy of Jeremy Corbyn
I was asking for a baseline date from which she was assessing the rise in anti Semitism.
The reason I ask is because it seems to me there might be some shifting baseline syndrome at play here which might go some way to explaining how someone like Stephen Solley can regard Miriam Mirwich's claim that "I know what it's like to face antisemitism every day'' as absurd.
He's maybe measuring what he regards as having to face anti Semitism against a different timescale based on his experiences from the 1940s onwards.
Or maybe you can offer some other possible explanation for his view?
Similar threads
