Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
Treacle Toes
Time
Unless you want to out yourself as Stephen I'm not going to engage with 'his' view because I think that would be guess work and lead nowhere definitive.
I am assuming you aren't Stephen, so what is yours?
TopCat
Putin fanboy
You dont think JVL have been a voice of reason? Why not?
Can you accept that it is possible to regard Mirwich's view that she has to fight anti Semitism every day as absurd without being anti Semitic?
And by extension can you accept that it is possible to regard some of the views expressed on here about the extent and degree of anti Semitism as absurd without being anti Semitic?
And by extension can you accept that it is possible to regard some of the views expressed on here about the extent and degree of anti Semitism as absurd without being anti Semitic?
Yes he would have been added to the group, from what I understand that's how the group worked. Your claim about Corbyn's activity is odd though because he definitely was active (though not very) and I've just checked and Collier does highlight comments and likes from Corbyn in the group. He doesn't accuse Corbyn of sharing their views and neither do I. Maybe he didn't notice the horrific stuff all over that group, and didn't know he was in the company of hardcore racists. He didn't notice the anti-semitism in the mural either. I don't think it's much of an excuse.looked it all up to refresh memory - JC claimed to have been added to the group :
"The Palestine Live group was founded in 2013 and was set up in a way that allowed administrators to add people to the group without their consent. It is understood that Corbyn believes he may have been added to the group by an acquaintance, who simultaneously added him as a Facebook friend when he was a backbench MP. "
Labour suspends party members in 'antisemitic' Facebook group
Jeremy Corbyn was active in closed group Palestine Live but says he did not see offensive posts and left in 2015www.theguardian.com
which may have sounded thin, if it wasn't for the fact that D Collier did some serious searching / researching, and didn't come up with a single like, comment or share from Corbyn that he felt warranted attention. Bearing in mind the total lack of attention focused on Corbyn 2013 ( when PL FB launched ) to 2015, ie : he had no need to moderate his own actions etc, his minimal activity on there does bear out the idea he was added / not active etc.
You're right though, he wasn't under scrutiny then and apparently felt no need as an anti-racist and MP to do even the bare minimum of investigation as to what kind of a group he'd been added to and was participating in. I doubt it would have even occured to him that it would have been necessary.
And yet some like Michael Rosen, who has known if for forty years, insists he's not anti Semitic.
I'm inclined to trust Rosen's judgement on this. No offence.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I was asking for the baseline date the poster was using.
Only the poster could provide that.
No doubt there's all sorts of data on the internet.
But I would have no idea which date the poster was using.
Which was why I asked.
steveseagull
Well-Known Member
It is all heading to the High Court. A group of mainly (but not exclusively) elderly Jewish party members have launched proceedings against the Labour party to challenge their disciplinary process (which is becoming more sinister by the day) which they claim, shits all over the EHRC report.
skwawkbox.org
Jewish members and others file court claim against Labour for breach of EHRC principles after party tells them: ‘EHRC does not apply to you’
Group believes leadership’s conduct is unlawful and a breach of its commitment to EHRC Seven mostly elderly members of the Labour Party have today filed a claim in the High Court after the Pa…
skwawkbox.org
you need to stop saying stuff like this, it's always a prelude to a deluge of crankery.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Gold standard lurking hitmouse, glad you're here.
I think mostly what's happened in the last few pages is best understood against the backdrop of the previous 160 (which consisted mostly of endless variants of 1 and 3 - its just silencing legit criticism of the Israeli state & weaponisation by 'our enemies' ), so there might be a bit of oversteer by way of trying to find a way forward, if you know what i mean. Am not good at car analogies. I don't think anyone is denying that 1 & 3 are real things or important parts of the story of what's been going on.
And Jewdas seem alright, i went to a thing of theirs in a pub couple of years ago and tbh it made me feel a bit old, the people there were all (i think) in their twenties, which obvs not a problem and i'm glad they exist.
They give good meme but this piece of writing published by them was properly useful imo. Not that i agree with every line but the basic dynamic it diagnoses is spot on imo.
This, from that, is exactly what i was getting at in my post to danny yesterday - the idea that there has been an evolution of this sort of labour centred anti-semitism from the classical stuff that steve cohen talked about in his book to one where it's not just anti-semitism in the left but left-anti-semitism, one where anti-semitism is tied up with the idea of being on the left, of defending and progressing the left. And that the more classical anti-semites like wino here are as unable to see it as anti-semitism as the classical old school sorry i missed that anti-racists like corbyn
It was clear to me that the attacks on Corbyn were smears. And yet as the row between Corbyn’s defenders and attackers escalated the conflict began to take on new, more troubling dynamics. At worst, Corbyn had not been careful enough with his language (something he has subsequently admitted) and some of his past associations in his commendable advocacy for Palestinian rights. By contrast, some of those who identified as his supporters deliberately began ramping up their use of arguments that could conceivably be understood as antisemitic, now in full knowledge that they would be interpreted in this way. The primary objective was now fighting the “witch hunt” itself, as they call it. This is what many regard as a highly coordinated campaign to destroy the left, involving Labour Party rebels, the media and the Israeli government, and counting on the support of large numbers of British Jews. It has become an increasingly poisonous dispute that has played out both on social media and within Labour Party disciplinary processes.
...
In essence, a loud minority of Labour supporters have come to the conclusion that because antisemitism has cynically been used by some to attack Corbyn, that any claim of antisemitism must, by definition, be a smear. By logical extension, anyone accusing a leftist of antisemitism must be part of the conspiracy, or otherwise is caving in to it, whether out of cowardice or gullibility.
Because they're just about stanning for Corbyn/Labour left irrespective of context rather than representing diverse experiences and opinions of Jews fed up with the JLM. So they won't hear any criticisms of Livingstone or Williamson etc., no attempt at nuance just defend X! and support Y! and oh by the way we're Jewish (as if anybody cares if they are or not).
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
The timeframe mentioned was, IIRC, over the last few years.
All of the published data I've seen would appear to corroborate their perception of rising levels of antisemitism.
Maybe you don't agree?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Perfect timing!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Those are bad numbers, although the rise in social media numbers also reflects the rise in social media use generally. Steep jump in verbal abuse after 2016. The Brexit factor.
Those are bad numbers, although the rise in social media numbers also reflects the rise in social media use generally. Steep jump in verbal abuse after 2016. The Brexit factor.
There's also a problem that it's using self reported data and is dependent on people being willing to report to the CST which of course depends on them knowing about it in the first place. So to an extent the increases just represent the CST's profile increasing.
That's not to say it doesn't indicate a real trend of course.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Exactly.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I cannot believe that these people read the full report and reached the conclusions that they have, the skawkbox writer certainly has either not read it or if they have have utterly misunderstood it's findings. And more to the practical point, the labour party had until 5pm yesterday to provide the EHRC with a draft action plan to put right the things that the EHRC found unlawful (none of which are the things above), so bringing a case claiming that they haven't put things right which a) they don't have to and b) even if they did they did not have to complete them within this time frame is absurd. And filing a claim with the high court is not the same as 'going to the high court'.It is all heading to the High Court. A group of mainly (but not exclusively) elderly Jewish party members have launched proceedings against the Labour party to challenge their disciplinary process (which is becoming more sinister by the day) which they claim, shits all over the EHRC report.
Jewish members and others file court claim against Labour for breach of EHRC principles after party tells them: ‘EHRC does not apply to you’
Group believes leadership’s conduct is unlawful and a breach of its commitment to EHRC Seven mostly elderly members of the Labour Party have today filed a claim in the High Court after the Pa…
ska invita
back on the other side
I dont really understand the point your are making here - could you explain it more please?
Isn't the fact that weaponisation hurt Jewish people (and the wider community) objectively true? Are you saying it isnt? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Corbyn didn't just say it was ONLY the weaponsiation that had hurt people in that much longer statement, but it is objectively true that it very much did and continues to do so. Why faux concern?
In fact I remember you being hurt by it yourself and desperately wishing it would stop....>
I remember having an interaction with you a year or two ago where you were saying (paraphrase) in despair "I wish they would just stop stirring up the antisemitism accusations - its just making it so much worse", I responded "its just begun in the US with accusations of Bernie Sanders being anti-semitic, so seemingly this political weaponisation wasn't going to go away, in fact its spreading as a tactic", to which you were despondent.
<<<posted in good faith in case that isnt clear
bimble
floofy
ska invita will reply got to drive the car on a motorway now for first time since March.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
The continued attempts to use same tactics on the squad as they tried vs Bernie over there don’t seem to have gained traction thankfully, seems to be mainly evangelical grifters that even the most machiney Democrats aren’t willing to co-weaponise with
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Shifting baseline syndrome maybe?
My point is that someone like Solley, who has been around since the 1940s perhaps has a different perception of the extent and degree of antisemitism compared to someone much younger and that's why he regards Mirwich's claim to face anti Semitism every day as absurd (and upsetting).
The other point is how reliable is that data?
1. it's self reported, so while you can assume it's accurate, if you're basing a deduction on an assumption you're building on sand. Is the data subjected to any kind of scrutiny or checking? Just as there are those who would wish to downplay the amount of anti Semitism so there are those who would wish to exaggerate it.
2. it's based on perception, so do the rising figures reflect a rise in the number of actual incidents or either a shift in people's attitudes towards what constitutes anti Semitism or public mood generally at the time making people more inclined to report an incident which in other times they might chose to ignore?
cantsin
Well-Known Member
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I think that's part of it yes but CST are pretty well known in the Jewish community as they do a lot (most these days) of training for volunteer security duty in synagogues, basically sitting on the gate and letting people in for friday night service etc. However it's true that people might not have known they can report stuff to them. I have mixed feelings about the reporting stuff aspect tbh although they were very helpful when I had a workplace issue a few years ago.
It's worth remembering that the vast majority of these kinda incidents are underreported, less so proportionally with antisemitism iirc tho and some incidents (eg on social media or someone yelling stuff out a car window) you might not even bother.
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