Kevin Rye offers his Structured Answers to Questions Thread

[Kevin Rye]

Hi. Akin to what I've done on Twitter, I'm responding to as many issues and questions that I picked up from people on this messageboard. It might not be comprehensive at this stage, because it has involved me looking for them, rather than people explicitly asking them of me on here. This is basically because there are several threads with the issues on them. If it's ok with everyone, and the board's editor(s)/moderator(s), could everyone use this thread to ask questions? As I said on Twitter just a short while ago (and which has already been copied and posted on here), I might not be able to respond immediately, but I'll try and get them as soon as I can. Cheers

 

[Kevin Rye]

Q1/ From
Pink Panther

This supposed wage bill of £8k a week leading to an annual loss of £170k sounds very fishy indeed. Only last month it appears have been £5k a week, and the annual loss was £150k a year according to the comprehensive article.


A1/ Regarding the wage budget, the figures that have been quoted have always been net player wages only per-week. They haven’t included the manager, coaching staff or physios, nor did they include the bonus structure. The current gross wage bill (that is, the actual costs to the football club - which includes tax payments and NI) - is £8,274 a week.

Meadow Residential (and previously Hadley) inherited the wage budget. When Meadow took on responsibility for the project, they began investigating the level of the wage bill as part of the exercise. I was commissioned to do some research back in January 2017, and Meadow Residential themselves had discussions at length with Gavin Rose and the Chair of the Football Committee, Liam Hickey, as part of it. In the end, partly because of the concerns expressed by the manager and Liam Hickey/members of the committee, and some supporters to the idea of cutting the wage bill, Meadow Residential didn’t carry this out. Meadow Residential accept that this should have been tackled earlier but they didn’t want to cause additional upheaval at a delicate time.

The financial situation is clear. For years the Club’s income has not covered the outgoings and the largest part of these outgoings is the wage bill.

Edit: Additional information on the wage bill can be seen on this thread via my Twitter handle, @kevinrye A screenshot of the thread is viewable here:

 

[Kevin Rye]

Q2/ No name

Our concern is that they have full control of how much they spend on match day, and we have no say, so we could be told costs were very high and we only get £5, if they wanted to play it that way.

A2/ Meadow have fully outlined the costs and expenditure as part of the financial projections for this season, and actuals from 2016/2017. These have been in receipt by the Football Committee and the Supporters Trust since September 19th. We have received some responses from both parties, as we’ve explained, but there are apparently further queries. Yesterday we received an email from Alex Crane from the Supporters' Trust, which we are now working through.

Further to this, Meadow can supply a full set of invoices for all match day expenses so that these can be checked against the market norm.

 

[Kevin Rye]

Q3/ Matt the Cab
Don’t forget we recently turned over £9k in profit on NLD, I’ve no idea if the bar takings were included in on that figure or it was just based upon what was a very large gate. Whichever it was the potential is out there.

A3/ Costs were deducted from a total income of £16,164 on the gate, and the net of this after costs was sent to two charities. The amount given to charity was £9,117.75

 

[Dulwich Mishi]

Q1/ From
Pink Panther

This supposed wage bill of £8k a week leading to an annual loss of £170k sounds very fishy indeed. Only last month it appears have been £5k a week, and the annual loss was £150k a year according to the comprehensive article.


A1/ Regarding the wage budget, the figures that have been quoted have always been net player wages only per-week. They haven’t included the manager, coaching staff or physios, nor did they include the bonus structure. The current gross wage bill (that is, the actual costs to the football club - which includes tax payments and NI) - is £8,265 a week.

Meadow Residential (and previously Hadley) inherited the wage budget. When Meadow took on responsibility for the project, they began investigating the level of the wage bill as part of the exercise. I was commissioned to do some research back in January 2017, and Meadow Residential themselves had discussions at length with Gavin Rose and the Chair of the Football Committee, Liam Hickey, as part of it. In the end, partly because of the concerns expressed by the manager and Liam Hickey/members of the committee, and some supporters to the idea of cutting the wage bill, Meadow Residential didn’t carry this out. Meadow Residential accept that this should have been tackled earlier but they didn’t want to cause additional upheaval at a delicate time.

The financial situation is clear. For years the Club’s income has not covered the outgoings and the largest part of these outgoings is the wage bill.

Are you really saying the wage budget is exactly the same now as when Hadley & then Meadows got involved, no matter what figures you quote? If not...in fact it surely means, if the wage bill is too high to sustain, as you allege, then it would have been Hadley/Meadows who agreed to the current structure, and thus any responsibility for it not being manageable is their fault, as they are the ones who set the playing budget, however you interpret it, as the facilitators of the running of the Club on behalf of McCormack.

 

[Kevin Rye]

Q4/ Jack Pitt-Brooke
If the club ran itself and took the bar and gate money it would be able to survive, but like this I don’t think it can. Meadow must imagine that if the club goes under then they can develop Champion Hill minus the £7m cost of a new football ground, with a bit of extra affordable housing thrown in and something to satisfy the s106 covenant. Very worrying.

A4/ This is simply not correct. The gross £8,274 a week wage bill (including the manager, coaches, physios and bonus pool - see A1) alone makes this extremely unlikely. We have sent extensive financial information, and we have now benchmarked some figures (for example gate income) to other relevant clubs, and the problem is clear: it’s very difficult to significantly reduce costs, and very difficult to significantly increase revenue. We are however open to discussion on this, but any offer of a face-to-face meeting with either the trust or the football club has been turned down. We have however yesterday received an email from Alex Crane, which I notice refers to a possible meeting. That will be addressed in more detail and responded to.

Edit: Additional information on the wage bill can be seen on this thread via my Twitter handle, @kevinrye A screenshot of the thread is viewable here:

 

[Dulwich Mishi]

Q2/ No name

Our concern is that they have full control of how much they spend on match day, and we have no say, so we could be told costs were very high and we only get £5, if they wanted to play it that way.

A2/ Meadow have fully outlined the costs and expenditure as part of the financial projections for this season, and actuals from 2016/2017. These have been in receipt by the Football Committee and the Supporters Trust since September 19th. We have received some responses from both parties, as we’ve explained, but there are apparently further queries. Yesterday we received an email from Alex Crane from the Supporters' Trust, which we are now working through.

Further to this, Meadow can supply a full set of invoices for all match day expenses so that these can be checked against the market norm.

As I understand it a number of points have been raised about these 'accounts', which Meadows have declined to answer. Can you confirm this?

 

[SDE]

A2/ Costs were deducted from a total income of £16,164 on the gate, and the net of this after costs was sent to two charities. The amount given to charity was £9,117.75

This seems remarkable. Total matchday costs were £7k - is that correct? And if so, is it typical of most matchday costs?

 

[Kevin Rye]

Q5/ Mishi Morath
I think there’s something that says a new ground of sorts must be provided. I would suggest there’s no way to be able to develop the current ground without offering us new facilities of some sort. I would need more than a ‘bit of affordable housing’, as I personally believe the only reason this scheme fell was because they only offered ‘a bit of affordable housing’

A5/ This is simply not correct. Meadow were confident of success at the planning appeal and affordable housing was not in issue. This was withdrawn after the Club had its lease of the Green Dale astroturf pitch taken away, which was integral to the proposed project.

 

[Dulwich Mishi]

How much debt is added on to the total through your advisory fees, Kevin, if they are 'loaded' onto Football Club debts?

 

[mick mccartney]

Q5 : i can immediately think of ways that costs could be reduced :
1) go back to voluntary stewarding
2) make Chris redundant
3) cleaning

1 &2 were not needed before Meadows came along , and are not needed now
1 &3 if the club were allowed control , i'm sure this could be done by volunteers

 

[Pickman's model]

surely this should be called 'the answers which raise more questions thread'

 

[Dulwich Mishi]

Q5/ Mishi Morath
I think there’s something that says a new ground of sorts must be provided. I would suggest there’s no way to be able to develop the current ground without offering us new facilities of some sort. I would need more than a ‘bit of affordable housing’, as I personally believe the only reason this scheme fell was because they only offered ‘a bit of affordable housing’

A5/ This is simply not correct. Meadow were confident of success at the planning appeal and affordable housing was not in issue. This was withdrawn after the Club had its lease of the Green Dale astroturf pitch taken away, which was integral to the proposed project.

I wasn't referring specifically to Meadows, but a clause/covenant on anyone who might choose to develop the current Champion Hill ground.

 

[mick mccartney]

Q5/ Mishi Morath
I think there’s something that says a new ground of sorts must be provided. I would suggest there’s no way to be able to develop the current ground without offering us new facilities of some sort. I would need more than a ‘bit of affordable housing’, as I personally believe the only reason this scheme fell was because they only offered ‘a bit of affordable housing’

A5/ This is simply not correct. Meadow were confident of success at the planning appeal and affordable housing was not in issue. This was withdrawn after the Club had its lease of the Green Dale astroturf pitch taken away, which was integral to the proposed project.

why is that integral ? just because you have a lease , doesn't mean you can build on it . and if that is the case , why doesn't Meadows go after the lease for itself ?

 

[StephenMac]

surely this should be called 'the answers which raise more questions thread'

Who'd have guessed, eh?

 

[cambelt]

Q5 : i can immediately think of ways that costs could be reduced :
1) go back to voluntary stewarding
2) make Chris redundant
3) cleaning

1 &2 were not needed before Meadows came along , and are not needed now
1 &3 if the club were allowed control , i'm sure this could be done by volunteers

Going back to volunteers....am sure the luxury outside bar would have cost much less than the supposed £6k if they let fans get involved.

 

[Kevin Rye]

Q6/ Pink Panther
Did he [Nick McCormack]ever relinquish his majority shareholding in the first place? Therefore surely Meadow’s pledge to hand the club over to DHST in the event of the development being completed is meaningless, as the club is not theirs to hand over.

Roger D (in ref to above)
I seem to remember they had a binding agreement the developers would take over at a certain point. (Perhaps when planning permission was granted, perhaps when the development was finished.) That would then permit them to hand the club on.

A6/ Meadow have an option agreement with Nick McCormack to buy his shares in DHFC Ltd. The plan has always been that on receiving planning permission that Meadow would exercise the right to buy the shares and then transfer these to fans (to a Community Benefit Society, the model established by Supporters Direct) for zero costs and on a debt free basis. There is a Memorandum of Understanding in place between the Dulwich Hamlet Supporters Trust (DHST) and Meadow Residential (which was previously in place between Hadley and DHST).

 

[Kevin Rye]

Q7/ No name
More fan money into 12th Man bucket so it can go direct to the player budget sounds great, and encouraging fans to reduce cash spent in the bar to compensate also sounds smart. I worry they (Meadows) will still impose crazy inflated costs of running said bar, even on a low traffic basis, to piss us off and force the issue. But it seems a decent thing to do right now.

A7/ See reference to costs and financials that have been with DHST and the Football Committee since September 19th. Meadow also have no intention of falsifying information to make sure the bar loses money and can supply a full set of invoices for all match day expenses so that these can be checked against the market norm.

 

[cambelt]

Q6/ Pink Panther
Did he [Nick McCormack]ever relinquish his majority shareholding in the first place? Therefore surely Meadow’s pledge to hand the club over to DHST in the event of the development being completed is meaningless, as the club is not theirs to hand over.

Roger D (in ref to above)
I seem to remember they had a binding agreement the developers would take over at a certain point. (Perhaps when planning permission was granted, perhaps when the development was finished.) That would then permit them to hand the club on.

A6/ Meadow have an option agreement with Nick McCormack to buy his shares in DHFC Ltd. The plan has always been that on receiving planning permission that Meadow would exercise the right to buy the shares and then transfer these to fans (to a Community Benefit Society, the model established by Supporters Direct) for zero costs and on a debt free basis. There is a Memorandum of Understanding in place between the Dulwich Hamlet Supporters Trust (DHST) and Meadow Residential (which was previously in place between Hadley and DHST).

What was the plan in the event of failing to get planning permission? There was, after all, a chance that this may happen.

 

[Kevin Rye]

Q8/ Liam DHFC
A manager asks for what he thinks he needs and the money people agree or disagree. Whatever the figures, no manager can ever be blamed for the financial issues. If salaries are offered and accepted then any problems are caused by those who agreed to them.

A8/ Meadow Residential (and previously Hadley) inherited the wage budget. When Meadow took on responsibility for the project, they began investigating the level of the wage bill as part of the exercise. I was commissioned to do some research back in January 2017, and Meadow Residential themselves had discussions at length with Gavin Rose and yourself (Liam Hickey), as part of it. In the end, partly because of concerns expressed by the manager and yourself, and some supporters, to the idea of cutting the wage bill, Meadow Residential didn’t carry this out. I have said very clearly since I returned to the project about seven weeks ago, and Meadow agree, that this issue should have been tackled earlier, but Meadow didn’t want to cause additional upheaval at a delicate time.

 

[Kevin Rye]

Apologies if as someone has already said, 'this raises more questions than it answers'. It's probably unavoidable, given the amount of information I've just dumped on all of you. As I said, if you can post other questions or observations here - preferably as individual, separate posts, rather than as responses to existing ones, that would help me be able to collect them and get them answered or responded to. Thanks.

 

[Dulwich Mishi]

Q7/ No name
More fan money into 12th Man bucket so it can go direct to the player budget sounds great, and encouraging fans to reduce cash spent in the bar to compensate also sounds smart. I worry they (Meadows) will still impose crazy inflated costs of running said bar, even on a low traffic basis, to piss us off and force the issue. But it seems a decent thing to do right now.

A7/ See reference to costs and financials that have been with DHST and the Football Committee since September 19th. Meadow also have no intention of falsifying information to make sure the bar loses money and can supply a full set of invoices for all match day expenses so that these can be checked against the market norm.

People would not see these, as I understand they were shared in confidence, with the Trust Board and Football Committee. Does it mean it is now ok to share all of these figures with supporters in public, as you suggest, so fans can reference them?

 

[Son of Roy]

So Kevin, what is Meadow Residential's aim now? (1) Sell their shares in the club? (2) Drive the club out of business and build on the pitch? or (3) Hold on to their stake, load the club with debt and use the business to avoid tax? They must have a strategy. I am probably naive to think there will be an honest answer! What do you think about a business who wants to hurt it's customers, it's revenue stream, because it had a disagreement with Southwark council. Do you have a concience?

 

[Roger D]

Q5/ Mishi Morath
I think there’s something that says a new ground of sorts must be provided. I would suggest there’s no way to be able to develop the current ground without offering us new facilities of some sort. I would need more than a ‘bit of affordable housing’, as I personally believe the only reason this scheme fell was because they only offered ‘a bit of affordable housing’

A5/ This is simply not correct. Meadow were confident of success at the planning appeal and affordable housing was not in issue. This was withdrawn after the Club had its lease of the Green Dale astroturf pitch taken away, which was integral to the proposed project.

Why were you so confident of success given that the application appeared to conflict with some Southwark plans and policies?

Even if Southwark passed it the nature of the development would almost certainly have seen it called in by the Mayor. I believe he was elected on a campaign promise to block development on MOL and has already blocked one football stadium proposed to be built on MOL in London.

 

[Matt The Cab]

So Kevin, what is Meadow Residential's aim now? (1) Sell their shares in the club? (2) Drive the club out of business and build on the pitch? or (3) Hold on to their stake, load the club with debt and use the business to avoid tax? They must have a strategy. I am probably naive to think there will be an honest answer! What do you think about a business who wants to hurt it's customers, it's revenue stream, because it had a disagreement with Southwark council. Do you have a concience?

 

[Kevin Rye]

I have now compiled a complete list of all answers to questions I have searched for and received on the subject of DHFC and Meadow Residential. This includes information about wages, and other questions/areas of concern. I'll be doing some more on this asap: Wrap up of DHFC final questions 08/11/2017

 

[liamdhfc]

No further comment from me except that I'm now seeking legal advice regarding the use of my name and attributing it to certain actions. Hope the minutes of the meeting exist.

 

[blueheaven]

Kevin, I previously asked a question that seems to have been missed. Please can you respond to the below?

---

... so Meadows were funding the club, the playing budget, the staff, the ground improvements, etc. Now they're talking about that money being funded by their investors, and how they can't continue with this level of spending when it may be that these investors won't get this money back. Does that mean all of the money spent on the club by Meadows is now club debt?

 

[blueheaven]

Also... presumably Meadow have always had a plan for what would happen in the event of planning permission not being granted. Please can you share with us what that plan is?

 

[EDC]

Going back to volunteers....am sure the luxury outside bar would have cost much less than the supposed £6k if they let fans get involved.

Bognor and East Thurrock at the playoff finals had a bloke selling lager sitting at a table outside. Worked perfectly.