Keir Starmer's time is up

[ska invita]

I clocked your comment and thought about it while listening to Lewis being interviewed on Novara media last night (think the interview was earlier in the week).

He was abysmal. ‘A level’ cultural race theory combined with liberal popular frontism. His position is basically the same as Paul Masons (iirc Mason backed him for leader before swinging behind Starmer once CL couldn’t get the votes to go onto the ballot). Put simply: large sections of the working class - especially those not in cities, not young and not possessive of a postmodernist understanding of the world - are lost to ‘the left’. They are nativist/racist and beyond the pale.

Instead he proposes a liberal alliance of Labour, Liberal Democrat’s, Greens and Nats, the need for PR and coalition. Oddly, the young thrusting dynamic radical viewers of Novara lapped it up.

So you might be right therefore, that if Labour loses in 2024, that the approach he represents might be where Labour ends up. It’d be the settlement Blair and Mandelson always wanted: albeit cloaked in identity language.

I don't particularly follow your assumptions but I get the gist . It sounds chariceture to me, but I'm not going to argue it, I'm not invested.

My impression is Clive Lewis isn't much of a heavyweight thinker, he's quite a normal guy really. Ex army too. Maybe he can get tripped up on this or that but I think he is quite heartfelt... Not cut from cynical cloth.

I don't know his opinions on many topics, but he hasn't shied from being critical of Starmer, he was broadly supportive of Corbyn, and if his every man charm carries through he might rise to the top of a bland field. That's about the sum of my impression of him.

 

[ska invita]

I suppose some won’t have read the previous pages of the thread Belboid. But most will have. The point wasn’t, as you now claim, about the failure of social grading classification. It was that, in the debate about that, you claimed that ‘the evidence’ showed the Labour Party was ‘popular’ once social grading and self identification was taken into account. The problem was that the evidence didn’t show that. Bar among ABC1 voters who claimed to be working class where it showed Labour was marginally less unpopular. Your spinning, twisting and piss poor labelling isn’t going to change the evidence.

The irony of someone marooned in the dregs of what passes for a ‘left’ in the Labour Party banging on about the malign influence of the Stalinists is hilarious mind.

Are you a Stalinist?

 

[Pickman's model]

I clocked your comment and thought about it while listening to Lewis being interviewed on Novara media last night (think the interview was earlier in the week).

He was abysmal. ‘A level’ cultural race theory combined with liberal popular frontism. His position is basically the same as Paul Masons (iirc Mason backed him for leader before swinging behind Starmer once CL couldn’t get the votes to go onto the ballot). Put simply: large sections of the working class - especially those not in cities, not young and not possessive of a postmodernist understanding of the world - are lost to ‘the left’. They are nativist/racist and beyond the pale.

Instead he proposes a liberal alliance of Labour, Liberal Democrat’s, Greens and Nats, the need for PR and coalition. Oddly, the young thrusting dynamic radical viewers of Novara lapped it up.

So you might be right therefore, that if Labour loses in 2024, that the approach he represents might be where Labour ends up. It’d be the settlement Blair and Mandelson always wanted: albeit cloaked in identity language.

i can't help thinking that while you might be right about the paucity of lewis's thinking, you might phrase these sorts of thing rather better if you don't want to put off people who might see using a level as an insult as something of a dig at those whose highest qualification might be a levels or gcses and not have been to university. if you mean half-baked or facile or half-understood then perhaps better to say that. being as i suppose you'll be having conversations with people involved in the political education project and what generally goes down fine here might not go down so well with others.

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you a Stalinist?

he's a trot, i think, although we all know trotskyism is stalinism out of power

 

[ska invita]

large sections of the working class - especially those not in cities, not young and not possessive of a postmodernist understanding of the world - are lost to ‘the left’. They are nativist/racist and beyond the pale.

i didnt get that from his article - what did you hear? i thought he was saying Lets be honest about british history and not airbrush it. if youre going to Do the flag, do it as part of an honest historic and positive future vision.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Are you a Stalinist?

I’ve spent the last 20 years arguing against party builders, ‘democratic centralists’ and Lennist/Stalinist micro-sects of all kinds and for independent working class politics.

 

[teqniq]

Oh dearie me:

 

[belboid]

I’ve spent the last 20 years arguing against party builders, ‘democratic centralists’ and Lennist/Stalinist micro-sects of all kinds and for independent working class politics.

lol. You’ve spent however long you’ve been on here repeating drivel from macho wannabes and stalinists morons, replete with the chauvinism of the worst trade union official.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

lol. You’ve spent however long you’ve been on here repeating drivel from macho wannabes and stalinists morons, replete with the chauvinism of the worst trade union official.

Hark at you bellend. So busy with the endless smears: macho, Stalinist, chauvinism. All with your dog eared Labour Party membership card tucked in your pocket. The cobweb middle class left personified.

 

[belboid]

That doesn't even make sense. You have praised umpteen labour politicians, so that shouldn't be an issue. Throw in your support for nationalism and a crude as fuck class reductionism and it's the politics of someone stuck in the 1950's. When Stalinism ruled.

 

[ska invita]

one of the best things about urban is how we have different perspectives and generally rubalong despite it, without any factional position overly dominating

 

[Smokeandsteam]

That doesn't even make sense. You have praised umpteen labour politicians, so that shouldn't be an issue. Throw in your support for nationalism and a crude as fuck class reductionism and it's the politics of someone stuck in the 1950's. When Stalinism ruled.

A classic Bellend post. Discussion about Labour = praise for Labour (and neatly sidesteps having to account for your own continued active support and membership of it). Pro working class politics = class reductionism. Arguments against the gormless, political dead end ‘no borders’ line you push = nationalism.

Then, having constructed your pile of steaming shit, you draw some vague ‘conclusions’ for the smear operation. For someone so opposed to Stalinism you are well versed in its methods.

Anyway, that’s enough of my day off wasted on you.

 

[Shechemite]

Andy Burnham anyone?

 

[JTG]

Andy Burnham anyone?

It's going to be a choice between Someone Who Isn't Rachel Reeves and, well...

 

[ska invita]

Andy Burnham anyone?

que?

 

[JTG]

que?

Took it to mean the replacement for old hamface when he's inevitably couped by the right

 

[belboid]

A classic Bellend post. Discussion about Labour = praise for Labour (and neatly sidesteps having to account for your own continued active support and membership of it). Pro working class politics = class reductionism. Arguments against the gormless, political dead end ‘no borders’ line you push = nationalism.

Then, having constructed your pile of steaming shit, you draw some vague ‘conclusions’ for the smear operation. For someone so opposed to Stalinism you are well versed in its methods.

Anyway, that’s enough of my day off wasted on you.

lol. You really are a shambolic hypocrite. The posts where you praise particular labour politicians are all still here, tho you can pretend they dont exist if you like. Your view of class is narrow as fuck, stuck in a bygone era, hence, next to useless. I haven't mentioned 'no borders', dunno why you have, tho you support nationalism there as well as in wider economic measures (as you have posted in this very thread). Its all classic 'socialism in one country' nonsense. Narrow and parochial at the best of times, but in a leading imperialist nation, simply reactionary.

 

[Rimbaud]

lol. You really are a shambolic hypocrite. The posts where you praise particular labour politicians are all still here, tho you can pretend they dont exist if you like. Your view of class is narrow as fuck, stuck in a bygone era, hence, next to useless. I haven't mentioned 'no borders', dunno why you have, tho you support nationalism there as well as in wider economic measures (as you have posted in this very thread). Its all classic 'socialism in one country' nonsense. Narrow and parochial at the best of times, but in a leading imperialist nation, simply reactionary.

I don't really agree with Smokeandsteam's perspective, but I think you've got him wrong here.

My impression is that his politics are motivated by a fidelity to older traditions of trade unionism and a loyalty to those communities which were destroyed during the Thatcher era. And he is hostile to the kind of postmodern identity politics embraced by the middle class left which, as a part of New Labour, basically dismissed those communities which were the original strongholds of the labour movement, and sees the shift of those communities to the right (Brexit etc) as a symptom of this abandonment. His politics are an attempt to resolve that.

I'm sure Smokeandsteam can speak for himself and I apologise if I got him wrong, but that's where I have always felt you were coming from.

I think he gets some things wrong, but I respect his perspective and he certainly isn't a Stalinist or Trot or nationalist.

 

[ska invita]

the starmer effect = greens +3

 

[JTG]

the starmer effect = greens +3

Think there's some reversion to 2015 here, before a lot of the Green vote got folded into Labour when Corbyn took over. Labour still relatively high however because the Lib Dems are showing no signs of recovery at all

Certainly I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a Green surge in some of the more central areas of Bristol in May, largely at Labour's expense, possibly even ending up with a majority of councillors in the Bristol West constituency

'Others' looks weird though, given that the SNP usually manage around 5% on their own these days

 

[Raheem]

the starmer effect = greens +3

Come on. Be fair and give the flags a chance to do their thing.

 

[emanymton]

Come on. Be fair and give the flags a chance to do their thing.

Greens +4?

 

[JTG]

Think there's some reversion to 2015 here, before a lot of the Green vote got folded into Labour when Corbyn took over. Labour still relatively high however because the Lib Dems are showing no signs of recovery at all

Certainly I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a Green surge in some of the more central areas of Bristol in May, largely at Labour's expense, possibly even ending up with a majority of councillors in the Bristol West constituency

'Others' looks weird though, given that the SNP usually manage around 5% on their own these days

Just to add to that local angle - I have heard that Bristol West Labour reckon they topped the poll in every single ward in GE19, in a constituency where the Greens are in second. The current councillor distribution in West is nine Labour, nine Green, two LD of which I reckon up to seven Labour and one LD are vulnerable to the Greens.

Nothing guaranteed and I'm prepared to be wrong but I reckon Labour could do REALLY badly here

 

[ska invita]

Come on. Be fair and give the flags a chance to do their thing.

the silly thing about the leaked flags strategy is that he's been sat behind some flag for ages now - it should be a surprise to no one - though to be fair we didn't know he plans to "use veterans" yet.


I wonder if the Greens have ever polled as the third party in the UK before?

 

[DJWrongspeed]

There's certainly a vaccine lift for the Tories.
What's interesting then is that Cabinet minister's poor performance, Priti Patel /Kendrick/Williamson amongst others, Dominic Cummings fiasco and terrible covid deaths haven't lost the Tories much support.
That's not even considering Brexit, the effect of which has been masked by the pandemic. There's no business as usual in the situation so difficult predict anything.

 

[ska invita]

Demand For Special Labour Conference As Pressure Mounts On Starmer From Left

Exclusive: Demand For Special Labour Conference As Pressure Mounts On Starmer From Left

Unite, Socialist Campaign Group MPs and Momentum say there is "anger and disillusionment" among grassroots.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

A coalition of left-wing MPs, unions and Labour members are calling on Keir Starmer to hold an emergency party conference, HuffPost UK has learned.

Claiming there is widespread “anger and disillusionment” and a “crisis” in the party under the new leader, the group want party chiefs to recall conference immediately.

The motion is backed by the Socialist Campaign Group of MPs, which includes John McDonnell and Richard Burgon among others, as well as the powerful trade union Unite, Momentum and the Bakers’ Union.
...

The motion says an emergency online conference could be organised to coincide with the party’s women’s conference in June, and calls on Labour’s ruling national executive committee to force one.

It reads: “Discussion in local Labour Party meetings has been suppressed; motions banned; scores of activists suspended; and anger and disillusionment is exploding across our lay membership across the party.

“Members are leaving in droves and many more are expressing frustration and dissatisfaction at the attack on democracy and free speech. Many members are saying it doesn’t feel like the Labour Party anymore.”


---
usual suspects? yeah but the BBC are reporting it prominently too.
i guess May elections are key now

 

[teqniq]

Another human rights report published today, I suspect this one will be largely ignored though. From the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights on the Tory Regime's “Legislative Scrutiny: Overseas Operations Bill” (yes, remember one of the one's Starmer ordered Labour MPs to abstain on and threatened action against those who broke ranks):

https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/3191/documents/29846/default/

Great work ex-human rights barrister Keir Starmer QC!

In relation to the above, read this today:

Legalising Torture

The Overseas Operations Bill effectively decriminalises torture abroad. It's been labelled a political reaction to a series of legal claims - but its real motivation is thoroughly ideological.

tribunemag.co.uk

 

[toblerone3]

"Keir Starmer's time is up" - wrong. The clock has not even started. Give him a chance.

 

[Knotted]

All we are saying is give Keith a chance.

 

[JTG]

Demand For Special Labour Conference As Pressure Mounts On Starmer From Left

Exclusive: Demand For Special Labour Conference As Pressure Mounts On Starmer From Left

Unite, Socialist Campaign Group MPs and Momentum say there is "anger and disillusionment" among grassroots.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

A coalition of left-wing MPs, unions and Labour members are calling on Keir Starmer to hold an emergency party conference, HuffPost UK has learned.

Claiming there is widespread “anger and disillusionment” and a “crisis” in the party under the new leader, the group want party chiefs to recall conference immediately.

The motion is backed by the Socialist Campaign Group of MPs, which includes John McDonnell and Richard Burgon among others, as well as the powerful trade union Unite, Momentum and the Bakers’ Union.
...

The motion says an emergency online conference could be organised to coincide with the party’s women’s conference in June, and calls on Labour’s ruling national executive committee to force one.

It reads: “Discussion in local Labour Party meetings has been suppressed; motions banned; scores of activists suspended; and anger and disillusionment is exploding across our lay membership across the party.

“Members are leaving in droves and many more are expressing frustration and dissatisfaction at the attack on democracy and free speech. Many members are saying it doesn’t feel like the Labour Party anymore.”


---
usual suspects? yeah but the BBC are reporting it prominently too.
i guess May elections are key now

General Secretary David Evans, who has been leading the charge to purge the left from the party, has yet to have his appointment approved by Conference as per party rules after the cancellation of last year's. Handy for him that he gets 18 months to wreak havoc before having to have his own job ratified