Keir Starmer's time is up

[kebabking]

...Ask them nicely?

I am genuinely intrigued as to what great influence/coercion you believe the UK has over Israel, but refuses to use?

Genuine question: what is the stick so heavy that it would force Netanyahu/whoever to listen/act that the UK could use but chooses not to?

If Netanyahu isn't listening to Biden, why would he be forced listen to Starmer, or McDonald, or Corbyn?

Or is this all just performative bollocks that has no more impact on what happens in Gaza or the West Bank than a dog howling has on the moon?

 

[Gramsci]

I am genuinely intrigued as to what great influence/coercion you believe the UK has over Israel, but refuses to use?

Genuine question: what is the stick so heavy that it would force Netanyahu/whoever to listen/act that the UK could use but chooses not to?

If Netanyahu isn't listening to Biden, why would he be forced listen to Starmer, or McDonald, or Corbyn?

Or is this all just performative bollocks that has no more impact on what happens in Gaza or the West Bank than a dog howling has on the moon?

Never said what you are reading into my post

This is thread on Starmer.

 

[redsquirrel]

Are UK supported motions against the Russian state's actions in Ukraine also "just performative bollocks"?

If sending arms, money, etc to Ukraine is to be supported as something that makes a difference, why is stopping the sending of arms to Isreal an empty gesture?
If trying to build multi/international support for Ukraine's fight is a worthy cause, why is supporting the international pressure which calls on Isreal to stop the killing in Gaza (which has more support than Ukraine) howling at the moon?

 

[8ball]

If sending arms, money, etc to Ukraine is to be supported as something that makes a difference, why is stopping the sending of arms to Isreal an empty gesture?

Maybe sending arms to Iran would be a closer equivalent. British jobs etc. etc.

 

[kebabking]

Are UK supported motions against the Russian state's actions in Ukraine also "just performative bollocks"?

If sending arms, money, etc to Ukraine is to be supported as something that makes a difference, why is stopping the sending of arms to Isreal an empty gesture?
If trying to build multi/international support for Ukraine's fight is a worthy cause, why is supporting the international pressure which calls on Isreal to stop the killing in Gaza (which has more support than Ukraine) howling at the moon?

Because the UK is in a position to either aid, or not aid, Ukraine, both because of its stockpiles and it's political/military position within NATO. If the UK had taken a very different position on Ukraine it would have had a significant impact not just on Ukraine directly, but indirectly, because the UK provided back-fill to other states (Poland, Romania, Estonia etc..) who also stripped their arsenals to give to Ukraine.

That's not the situation with Israel. We have a pretty limited, transactional relationship with Israel. We have no real influence - nothing we do, or don't do, has any material impact on what policy they decide to follow.

Be unhappy with what they do, by all means - but don't pretend what anyone does, or doesn't say, or does or doesn't do, actually has any impact.

 

[Gramsci]

Perhaps this discussion is for the main thread on Gaza.

 

[Gramsci]

Starmer definitely thinks relationship with Israel is important. And UK if he is leader has role to play in supporting Israel.

And he backs that up with history of party supporting Zionism. Which he is correct on.

It was in days when Labour Zionism ran Israel.

My point was he is not on all matters some kind of pragmatist.

It might mean he is guilty of "performative bollox".

 

[PTK]

Because the UK is in a position to either aid, or not aid, Ukraine, both because of its stockpiles and it's political/military position within NATO. If the UK had taken a very different position on Ukraine it would have had a significant impact not just on Ukraine directly, but indirectly, because the UK provided back-fill to other states (Poland, Romania, Estonia etc..) who also stripped their arsenals to give to Ukraine.

That's not the situation with Israel. We have a pretty limited, transactional relationship with Israel. We have no real influence - nothing we do, or don't do, has any material impact on what policy they decide to follow.

Be unhappy with what they do, by all means - but don't pretend what anyone does, or doesn't say, or does or doesn't do, actually has any impact.

You seem to suffering from the delusion that Biden does not agree with what the State of Israel is doing in the Gaza Strip. If he wanted to, Biden could pick up the 'phone and tell Netanyahu that he will immediately cut off all military assistance, and the export of arms, and all other assistance, to the State of Israel if it does not desist. Reagan made a similar threat in 1982 with respect to the Israeli bombardment of Beirut, and the IDF ceased the bombardment.

The government of the UK is complicit on crimes against humanity in the Gaza Strip. It could cease this complicity, cease all arms exports, and military assistance, abrogate its treaty of military co-operation, and end all trade with the State of Israel. That would be the moral thing to do.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm not sure I agree with everything in this piece, but the issue that is Gaza most certainly hasn't gone away:

A faultline has opened in Keir Starmer’s pragmatic politics – and this time none of the usual fixes will work | Nesrine Malik

Gaza is an issue that Labour cannot simply finesse away. It is about real life, real death and the sympathies of millions, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik

www.theguardian.com

What she is saying about politics is this:

Gaza is not a political issue that can be wrestled to the ground and dispatched with Starmer’s ruthless, “eyes on the prize” attitude or fixation on policy “bomb proofing” and following fiscal rules. Gaza is about real life, real death, and the genuine stirring of the sympathies and solidarities of millions in the UK and across the world.

That these solidarities are dismissed by mainstream politics. "Its "performative bollocks" so to speak.

I think the solidarity is something that Starmer and co did not see happening.

Tbf I was surprised at it. Going on demos and it was not the usual suspects. And they were worldwide large demos

He felt he could clamp down on MP/ Cllrs/ members who took part in these acts of support and solidarity. When it turned out to not be the usual suspects he did not have any idea of how to deal with it.

This kind of popular mobilisation isn't what someone like Starmer or a lot of political classes want. It's not adult grown up politics .

The idea of solidarity is dismissed as out of date / not what real politics are about and or dangerous populism thats gone now Corbyn and Boris are gone.

Starmer could still ride this out.

 

[ska invita]

complicit on crimes against humanity etc

literally another day in the office for kebabking , that line of argument falls on deaf ears

 

[redsquirrel]

That would be the moral thing to do.

Yes of course it would be. But despite the protestations, it is also the practical thing

Stopping the sale of arms to Isreal would have an effect, voting for ceasefires at the UN would have an effect, removing the legal restrictions on BDS would have an effect. Would any of these things cause a sudden volte-face? Probably not, but they would have an incremental effect, isolating Israel (and the US) even more.

The resolutions passed against Russia at the UN did not stop the attacks on Ukraine, the economic sanctions and targeting of oligarchs didn't suddenly cause Putin to stop bombing, but there is no argument from the pro-NATO crowd about them being 'performative', because they are part of an incremental policy of trying to put pressure on Russia.

What is ironic is that the gross hypocrisy on display as regards the US, UK, NATO, EU etc policy/actions for Gaza and Ukraine actually hinders the efforts of NATO to defend Ukraine. The global south can see the hypocrisy and is so less likely to support efforts to isolate Russia.

 

[teqniq]

Gramsci it looks like Lambeth council are acting true to form:

 

[gosub]

Gramsci it looks like Lambeth council are acting true to form:

That possibly has more to do with demarcation than anything else or does foriegn policy come under AOB at Lambeth Council?

Seriously, at best pointless virtue signalling, at worst displacement activity distracting from the problems Lambeth has, that councillors actually make a difference about...

 

[hitmouse]

If Netanyahu isn't listening to Biden, why would he be forced listen to Starmer, or McDonald, or Corbyn?

Yes, how is it that Netanyahu can possibly ignore Biden's loud calls for a ceasefire? He's been so clear and unambiguous about his opposition to Israel's actions.

 

[PTK]

That possibly has more to do with demarcation than anything else or does foriegn policy come under AOB at Lambeth Council?

Seriously, at best pointless virtue signalling, at worst displacement activity distracting from the problems Lambeth has, that councillors actually make a difference about...

??? !!!

 

[gosub]

??? !!!

400 miles away but at a guess Lambath has a housing shortage and services that are beyond stretched....these are or should be headaches of the council....I cannot imagine what possible impact the Borough of Lambeth expects to make on affairs several thousand miles away.


If there is any UK democratic body to lobby yo try and affect change with regards Israel / Palastine its Westminster (not Westminster Council), though even they are struggling with doing anything meaningful

 

[PTK]

400 miles away but at a guess Lambath has a housing shortage and services that are beyond stretched....these are or should be headaches of the council....I cannot imagine what possible impact the Borough of Lambeth expects to make on affairs several thousand miles away.


If there is any UK democratic body to lobby yo try and affect change with regards Israel / Palastine its Westminster (not Westminster Council), though even they are struggling with doing anything meaningful

The idea behind this is that a local council passing a Motion puts pressure on the government, in a small way, to change its position. It seems to me that every elected representative has a duty to speak out against crimes against humanity.

Councillor Martin Abrams and two other councillors were not suspended by the Labour group on Lambeth council simply for voting on a Motion concerning foreign policy. They were suspended because the Labour group was opposed to an immediate ceasefire, and because these councillors voted for a Motion proposed by another party, the Green Party. Labour-majority councils (and councils in which other parties are in control) have passed Motions on foreign policy in the past, the most recent issue probably being Ukraine.

A fourth Labour councillor was also suspended for ABSTAINING on that Motion.

These suspensions are a disgrace.

The reason that local authority services in Lambeth and elsewhere have been massively reduced is that central government spending has been massively reduced since 2010 by Conservative-Liberal and Conservative governments. A large majority of local government funding comes from central government. Local councils cannot actually alter the amount of funding they receive from central government. I imagine that the London Borough of Lambeth has passed Motions on these things, but any Motions it may have passed with respect to local authority financing would have been ignored by central government. Central government is also responsible for the housing crisis.

Councillors these days have very little power to change things in the boroughs, towns, or cities they represent.

It would be rather stupid to think that by not voting on a Motion on the war in the Gaza Strip councillors would somehow be able to address the prolonged crisis in local services and housing caused by central government policies. Councillors are not so busy with international issues that they are ignoring local issues.

Councillors have the right to pass Motions on what they want. The truth is that the majority of the Labour group on the council of the London Borough of Lambeth supports the ongoing slaughter of unarmed civilians in the Gaza Strip. Lambeth council Labour group is opposed to the upholding of the Geneva Conventions and the enforcement of the Genocide Convention.

 

[Whagwan]

"We had to do electoral fraud 'cause our members are so antisemitic they are a threat to our donors, vote Labour"

 

[Mezzer]

I don't have any time for George Galloway, but it's satisfying that he'll now be a major thorn in Starmer's side. From Sky:
'If the Labour leader thinks he gets a hard time now from the SNP's Westminster leader Stephen Flynn and the Corbynite Labour left over the Israel-Hamas ceasefire row, wait until the ferocious Galloway starts tearing into him in the Commons chamber.'

 

[SpookyFrank]

That's not the situation with Israel. We have a pretty limited, transactional relationship with Israel. We have no real influence - nothing we do, or don't do, has any material impact on what policy they decide to follow.

So the UK military isn't directly supporting the Israeli 'war effort' then?

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't have any time for George Galloway, but it's satisfying that he'll now be a major thorn in Starmer's side. From Sky:
'If the Labour leader thinks he gets a hard time now from the SNP's Westminster leader Stephen Flynn and the Corbynite Labour left over the Israel-Hamas ceasefire row, wait until the ferocious Galloway starts tearing into him in the Commons chamber.'

You should remind yourself how infrequently gg attends parliament

 

[Mezzer]

You should remind yourself how infrequently gg attends parliament

He might do so more frequently now I'd guess? And even more so if there is a Labour Govt and he can grill Starmer at PMQs.

 

[Pickman's model]

He might do so more frequently now I'd guess? And even more so if there is a Labour Govt and he can grill Starmer at PMQs.

Like the other times he promised to. We were promised the ruc mp would raise siberia in parliament but he never did

 

[mojo pixy]

I don't GAF what Galloway says or does, he's a self-serving prick who miaowed into Rula Lenska's crotch and that can't be forgotten. I don't believe he's not racist, ableist and anti-semitic. I do believe he's as dishonest as any tory, but he's about to have a new flush of political success because the Left is soooo fucked that he's virtually all we have errr left.

Sad days.

 

[The39thStep]

So the UK military isn't directly supporting the Israeli 'war effort' then?

I must say I'm intrigued by the admission that the RAF have been flying "“ defensive materiel, or materiel that might help with the recovery of hostages” during the conflict." from Akrotiri to Tel Aviv .

 

[mojo pixy]

Chris Williamson busy bigging up George Galloway on the Toady programme, not disavowing Nick Griffin's support and enthusiastically justifying the Hamas October 7th attack.

It's a great start

 

[GarveyLives]

I don't have any time for George Galloway, but it's satisfying that he'll now be a major thorn in Starmer's side. ...

"Keir Starmer ... this is for Gaza":

​

 

[Plumdaff]

Starmer's response, which is to learn nothing and to assume Labour's candidate will walk it in a GE, makes me want Galloway to win in the GE, despite him being utterly loathsome.

It's an astonishing ?talent of Starmer's that he's - through arrogance, cynicism, and being massively pro-supporting genocide - even worse.

 

[ska invita]

Andrew Feinsteins challenge in Starmers St Pancras seat was always a massive long shot but looking just a little more feasible this morning. I don't think he'll be short of volunteers. Will be a lively campaign at the very least

 

[gosub]

I don't GAF what Galloway says or does, he's a self-serving prick who miaowed into Rula Lenska's crotch and that can't be forgotten. I don't believe he's not racist, ableist and anti-semitic. I do believe he's as dishonest as any tory, but he's about to have a new flush of political success because the Left is soooo fucked that he's virtually all we have errr left.

Sad days.

They played that cat clip on daytime telly again this morning....Not a fan of Galloway but the way London operates...fucking dystopian