Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so what you're saying is that rather having done anything, those people have had stuff done to them.
Katie Hopkins
- Thread starter Buckaroo
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that shows a good spirit
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
But the truth is more nuanced than 'either metabolism or fucked-up culture'. It can be the combination of both.
Sweet FA
✪ Three rounds Lord, in my .44 ✪
No she isn't for fuck's sake
"restriction of night shifts for all workers as that's proven to lead to weight issues among workers that do them. Or a wage increase. Or basically anything."
"age/metabolism/living situation"
"it's largely down to what they eat and what they do, but that is almost entirely NOT THEIR FAULT, but is because of structural issues around class, power, culture, poverty, etc. etc."
sim667
All aboard the 303 bus.
No she isn't for fuck's sake
"restriction of night shifts for all workers as that's proven to lead to weight issues among workers that do them. Or a wage increase. Or basically anything."
"age/metabolism/living situation"
"it's largely down to what they eat and what they do, but that is almost entirely NOT THEIR FAULT, but is because of structural issues around class, power, culture, poverty, etc. etc."
You've missed peak timing to try and start a bunfight, we've moved on now.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh Sweet FA's tardy intervention sadly missed the boat
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
the day is yet young though
Sweet FA
✪ Three rounds Lord, in my .44 ✪
Yeh, I've got loads of form for that. Pointing out where I think you've been a penis isn't starting a fight, it's pointing out that you've been a penis.
Posters post whilst other poster is writing a post shocker.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
sun barely above yardarm
sim667
All aboard the 303 bus.
Says the penis who won't let it drop.
I've already said I'd take Lynn's word for it.... move on and do something more productive with your day please.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I think, if you took 100 British males at random, fed them the same and made them take the same exercise for a period of perhaps a few months or more, you would get a wide range of BMIs at the end. Suggesting that there is more than diet and exercise at work, i.e. different metabolisms and perhaps natural genetic tendencies.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Yes, within a relatively small range you would - although BMI is a terrible yardstick for measuring this.
But to be significantly outside that range other much more complicated issues come into play.
Anyway, I'm going to stop now, as I just seem to fuck things up online today.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You would need to conduct several experiments, though. With one set of diet and exercise, they may well end up within a fairly narrow range, but with another set they may react very differently. My guess would be that the further away from a 'healthy' regime you got, the wider the differences would become. And the same people may end up at different places on the spectrum depending on the regime.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
littlebabyjesus are you saying you don't think genetics are such a large issue? Because my thinking is that they are probably massive.
For example, I know a couple, both of whom are overweight. They have two children, both of whom are overweight. Are the children overweight because their parents are over feeding them? or because of their genetics?
Equally I am sure we all know families where both parents are slim as are their offspring.
For example, I know a couple, both of whom are overweight. They have two children, both of whom are overweight. Are the children overweight because their parents are over feeding them? or because of their genetics?
Equally I am sure we all know families where both parents are slim as are their offspring.
Are you really, seriously saying that a child's diet is in any way independent from it's parents' diet?
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I am saying it may not be, but that genetics remain the elephant in the room.
Are you saying genetics don't influence the situation?
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
I'm not saying anything. You're the chump seriously trying to use the size of children as some kind of evidence that weight is genetic. Children prove absolutely nothing one way or the other, because there are way too many factors involved.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
As ever in nature/nurture arguments, the answer is 'both'. It is nurture of nature.
So yes, genetics are a large issue. But no, it is not down to genetic changes in the population that obesity levels have risen.
So it's a nuanced picture, and all the points have some merit. Yes, genetic differences play their part (and other developmental issues that might have led to different metabolisms) ; as do cultural and lifestyle issues, some of which, when examined at the class level, have very clear class-related explanations ; and, when looking at individuals, there is also stuff they can do as individuals to change their circumstances - we do still have some individual agency when faced with the genetic, developmental and socio-economic forces that act upon us.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
For someone who claims they are not saying anything you are actually saying quite a lot.
Can I assume from your statement that "there are way too many factors involved" means that genetics are indeed probably one of these many factors?
What does it matter what I think one way or other? I'm not the one trying to prove anything. You're the one making claims here.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
One problem here is that you've jumped from 'different people have different metabolic rates' to 'different metabolic rates are due to genetic factors'. The one doesn't follow from the other. All kinds of things while growing up may have influenced the resultant 'natural for me' metabolism.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
What I have argued springs from my belief that had Katie Hopkins actually put on and then lost 4 stone in weight, that may have been easier for her to do than others, faced with the same weight loss, because her natural state is as a skinny person, and other's natural states may differ.
I accept there is nature and nurture involved, and that individuals can influence their own position to varying extents.
So far, so uncontroversial
But leaping from that to saying that overweight children of overweight parents is evidence that it's genetic is just daft. Even if it is genetic -- even if it is totally genetic -- the argument is still completely bogus.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you missed my earlier post that we take 100 men of similar age at random and submit them to the same diet and exercise regime for a number of months and see what emerges.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Fair enough. Problem is that this kind of argument is often reduced to 'either a or b'. Fuckwits like Hopkins make their living reducing arguments to this. But the correct counter to her argument for 'a not b' is not to argue 'b not a'. Why people like her are invited onto Radio 4, I do not know.
No, I didn't miss that. Subject to lbj's correction of your suggestion, I didn't have an issue with that.
I had an issue with you claiming that overweight children of overweight parents is evidence of something that it is not evidence of.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Indeed. There are many factors.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Except that I don't recall making an absolute claim, I recall asking a question which was pretty much "nature or nurture!"
