Kamala Harris' time is up

[redsquirrel]

I don't think a "vote to keep fascists out" strategy is bad when faced with a possible fascist election victory. It's bad when it is the only strategy you have and fuck all is done until the next time. We know that is the real issue and nothing is being done. But that is about what happens away from and between polling days. On the day itself I don't see much to be gained by sitting at home.

The thing is that it is not just on the day itself. Organising on the basis 'vote to keep the fascist out' requires resources - in energy, money, time and political capital.

And that is when it becomes a pragmatic and tactical question. IMV much of the time those resources can be far better spent organising against Neo-liberalism. But I can conceive of situations that organising at the electoral level might be useful, it depends on the nature of the campaign, organising within a popular or united front is different to organising to prop up a neo-liberal shit like Macron.

France is a good example of where the lesser evil argument has failed. The PS have spent their time calling for a vote to keep out the fascist and they've being relegated to a minor-ish party while the RN have gone from strength to strength. The call to vote to keep out the fascist has failed, more and more voters are no longer buying it (while many others still accepting and supporting it). At the same time the political capital of the PS has been damaged, in part because of opposing Macron on Monday only to support him on Tuesday.

I don't believe it is in the long term advantage of the NPF to withdraw from so many seats (especially not when En Marche did not reciprocate). Doing so means that people don't see a viable alternative in their area, it delays the building of such an alternative, and makes it harder in the long run.
IMV the decision of Macron to not pull out against the LFI, was part of a deliberate strategy to weaken the LFI within the NPF (to the benefit of the PS). If the NPF is going to create a real alternative to the RN and Macron then it needs to organise against both. Remember Macron has specifically run on a platform opposed not just to the hard right but also the 'extreme left', pulling out provides a soft endorsement of En Marche and undermines the solidarity of the NPF.

The situation in the US is different, but I still don't believe it is advantageous to groups involved in class struggle to spend time getting people out to vote, donating to the Democrats, getting involved in electoral politics. I think the Black Rose Foundation are far better off putting their (rather limited) resources into their grassroots work than suddenly pivoting to the assist the Democrats.

*****
EDIT: In addition to the pertinent criticisms of the trolly problem made by kabbes, I'd note I'd that it is fundamentally individualistic. Class struggle is (or at least should be) a collective struggle.

 

[Pickman's model]

Has he? I guess you're including Gaza deaths here. But do you think Trump would have done any different, would have refused to help Israel and held them to account? I don't.

Biden took the US out of Afghanistan, which Trump failed to do. Biden took flak for that from all sides.

$3tn down the shitter. Fucktons of Yankee equipment left behind, including vast amounts of personal information about afghans of all stripes who opposed the taliban. Damn right he got flak for that, and I hope the Ukrainians took note of the dumping of Afghanistan when it no longer suited the Americans to stay. That'll be what happens to Ukraine too, down the line.

 

[bcuster]

$3tn down the shitter. Fucktons of Yankee equipment left behind, including vast amounts of personal information about afghans of all stripes who opposed the taliban. Damn right he got flak for that, and I hope the Ukrainians took note of the dumping of Afghanistan when it no longer suited the Americans to stay. That'll be what happens to Ukraine too, down the line.

Bravo!

 

[Wilf]

I would warn everyone not to get too excited -- Trump and his campaign may be rattled but there's a significant proportion of the country who are diehard believers and they will vote for him. It is going to be very close, no matter what.

Yes, it was inevitable that Biden would withdraw and Harris was probably the inevitable replacement. Articulate, positive vibe and the rest, but this is still about the last few decades. A history that meant Clinton couldn't win and created the conditions for a monster becoming president. Suppose though it will be about fine margins and a good VP pick.

 

[emanymton]

The thing is that it is not just on the day itself. Organising on the basis 'vote to keep the fascist out' requires resources - in energy, money, time and political capital.

And that is when it becomes a pragmatic and tactical question. IMV much of the time those resources can be far better spent organising against Neo-liberalism. But I can conceive of situations that organising at the electoral level might be useful, it depends on the nature of the campaign, organising within a popular or united front is different to organising to prop up a neo-liberal shit like Macron.

France is a good example of where the lesser evil argument has failed. The PS have spent their time calling for a vote to keep out the fascist and they've being relegated to a minor-ish party while the RN have gone from strength to strength. The call to vote to keep out the fascist has failed, more and more voters are no longer buying it (while many others still accepting and supporting it). At the same time the political capital of the PS has been damaged, in part because of opposing Macron on Monday only to support him on Tuesday, harms the political capital of the group.

I don't believe it is in the long term advantage of the NPF to withdraw from so many seats (especially not when En Marche did not reciprocate). Doing so means that people don't see a viable alternative in their area, it makes delays the building of such an alternative, and makes it harder in the long run.
IMV the decision of Macron to not pull out against the LFI, was part of a deliberate strategy to weaken the LFI within the NPF (to the benefit of the PS). If the NPF is going to create a real alternative to the RN and Macron then it needs to organise against both. Remember Macron has specifically run on a platform opposed not just to the hard right but also the 'extreme left', pulling out provides a soft endorsement of En Marche and undermines the solidarity of the NPF.

The situation in the US is different, but I still don't believe it is advantageous to groups involved in class struggle to spend time getting people out to vote, donating to the Democrats, getting involved in electoral politics. I think the Black Rose Foundation are far better off putting their (rather limited) resources into their grassroots work than suddenly pivoting to the assist the Democrats.

*****
EDIT: In addition to the pertinent criticisms of the trolly problem made by kabess, I'd note I'd that it is fundamentally individualistic. Class struggle is (or at least should be) a collective struggle.

Thank you for the detailed reply, I don't really disagree with anything you say.

The post that prompted this discussion was (to my reading at least) talkig purely about voting, not organising, which I agree is a very different thing.

Hence my question as to what Bidenomics has achieved for the working class, I'd need to know what I would be voting for rather than against if I was in the States

I disagree that in order to vote for Harris you need to feel you are voting for something, I think voting against Trump is enough. Allowing for the fact that in many states it probably doesn't mean anything.

You could argue that voting on that basis is a step towards organising. I'm voting to keep Trump out why not contribute a little money to keep him out, why not put a poster up, why distribute a few leaflets etc. A slippery slope to just being a Democrat. And I think that is a potentially valid argument. But while an election will never come down to a single vote I wouldn't want to be in a situation where someone Like Trump wins a narrow victory and I hadn't used my vote to try and stop it.

My view might be influenced by the deep hatred I have for him though. I have seriously never hated a politician more.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

$3tn down the shitter. Fucktons of Yankee equipment left behind, including vast amounts of personal information about afghans of all stripes who opposed the taliban. Damn right he got flak for that, and I hope the Ukrainians took note of the dumping of Afghanistan when it no longer suited the Americans to stay. That'll be what happens to Ukraine too, down the line.

Just to deal with your first point, that is a fine example of the sunk cost fallacy.

 

[gosub]

Has he? I guess you're including Gaza deaths here. But do you think Trump would have done any different, would have refused to help Israel and held them to account? I don't.

Biden took the US out of Afghanistan, which Trump failed to do. Biden took flak for that from all sides.

https://www.axios.com/2021/08/20/trump-taliban-agreement-doha-biden

Afghan deal was done by Trump's secretary of State Mike Pompeo

 

[VivaE]

Why has Kamala been so anonymous as vice president? I have never heard her speak before and I’m sure she has been doing plenty of speaking, so what has stopped her remarks being reported in the tiny part of the English speaking world I pay attention to?

Because Biden failed to give her the room she deserved. He was only supposed to be a one-term president, KH was the potential new and very capable face of his presidency and the Dems moving forward, but, and I'm sorry to say this because I think Biden's a decent guy, provided much-needed calm after the storm that was trump, and deserves the accolades he's getting for steering America out of such a dark time, he (and the Dems) nevertheless failed her, failed to showcase her, failed to put her front and centre, in preparation for her becoming his natural replacement. Her 'anonymity' is a sad and kind of unsettling product of that.

So glad she's now being given the chance to show what she's made of.

 

[barlimo]

Has he? I guess you're including Gaza deaths here. But do you think Trump would have done any different, would have refused to help Israel and held them to account? I don't.

Biden took the US out of Afghanistan, which Trump failed to do. Biden took flak for that from all sides.

And what a mess he made of it! No medals for that fiasco, it must have cost thousands of lives. It wanted doing but not in the stupid way it was done.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Seeing multiple polls looking positive for her…

 

[Pickman's model]

Just to deal with your first point, that is a fine example of the sunk cost fallacy.

There are two parts to the sunk cost fallacy, a cost and then that's why we're continuing / it should have been continued. That necessary part is absent from my post.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seeing multiple polls looking positive for her…

There is only one poll that matters and that's in november

 

[two sheds]

Have seen a couple of articles saying that picking Vance was a terrible idea because it was based on fighting Biden and he only appeals to MAGA types. They'll need more general support against Harris.

 

[JimW]

Have seen a couple of articles saying that picking Vance was a terrible idea because it was based on fighting Biden and he only appeals to MAGA types. They'll need more general support against Harris.

That and calling Trump Hitler. Which is unfair on Hitler, as he never dodged the draft.

 

[Pickman's model]

That and calling Trump Hitler. Which is unfair on Hitler, as he never dodged the draft.

I note vance achieved the same lofty rank as the man from brunau

 

[gosub]

That and calling Trump Hitler. Which is unfair on Hitler, as he never dodged the draft.

As the Beeb correspondant pointed out this week...he might want to work on his wave

 

[klang]

That and calling Trump Hitler. Which is unfair on Hitler, as he never dodged the draft.

...and had hipster creds as a cycle messenger

 

[The39thStep]

Thank you for the detailed reply, I don't really disagree with anything you say.

The post that prompted this discussion was (to my reading at least) talkig purely about voting, not organising, which I agree is a very different thing.


I disagree that in order to vote for Harris you need to feel you are voting for something, I think voting against Trump is enough. Allowing for the fact that in many states it probably doesn't mean anything.

You could argue that voting on that basis is a step towards organising. I'm voting to keep Trump out why not contribute a little money to keep him out, why not put a poster up, why distribute a few leaflets etc. A slippery slope to just being a Democrat. And I think that is a potentially valid argument. But while an election will never come down to a single vote I wouldn't want to be in a situation where someone Like Trump wins a narrow victory and I hadn't used my vote to try and stop it.

My view might be influenced by the deep hatred I have for him though. I have seriously never hated a politician more.

I think we can agree that the best way to fight the populist right isn't to wait for elections ,but to counter their propaganda and arguments in our workplaces ,communities, and in our family and friends groups on a regular basis. Supporting and financing groups that oppose the populist right ,supporting and financing organisations that pull people together and build community cohesion whether they be community or trade union based .These are essential principles.

A discussion about voting is tactical and therefore if you are happy to vote Democrat ,which ever wing of the Democrats without knowing what they stand for aside from being anti Trump once every 4/5 years fine however its the day to day the activities which will be more important .

I remember a few decades ago antifascists had a discussion which was about filling the vacuum which after doing the day to day would be my preferred way forward .

 

[Kaka Tim]

...and had hipster creds as a cycle messenger

hipster hitler ...

 

[klang]

That and calling Trump Hitler. Which is unfair on Hitler, as he never dodged the draft.

Tbh dodging draft is probably the one and only thing i don't find entirely repulsive about the man.

 

[Serge Forward]

As the Beeb correspondant pointed out this week...he might want to work on his wave

Saw that. Funny as fuck. Can you remember which correspondent it was? I'll look out for them.

 

[Bingoman]

Her rally is quite lively atm

 

[Yossarian]

She's now visited swing state Wisconsin as a presidential candidate more times than Hillary Clinton did

 

[andysays]

This extract from Harris' Wisconsin speech suggests she recognises the importance of addressing the economic issues that some here have expressed concern about

Harris says one of her major platform points is that "everyone should not just get by", but should "get ahead". "A future where no child has to grow up in poverty," she says to applause. "Where every worker has the freedom to join a union. Where every person has affordable healthcare. Has affordable childcare and paid family leave." Additionally, Harris says that hopes for a future in which senior citizens can "retire with dignity". "All of this is to say, building up the middle class will be a defining goal of my presidency," she adds.

 

[JimW]

This extract from Harris' Wisconsin speech suggests she recognises the importance of addressing the economic issues that some here have expressed concern about

She co-sponsored Sanders' 'Medicare for All' thing back in day, I read.

 

[Wilf]

Seeing multiple polls looking positive for her…

Wonder how the twat who pinged Trump's ear would have voted?

 

[spring-peeper]

She co-sponsored Sanders' 'Medicare for All' thing back in day, I read.

Wouldn't surprise me.

During her teenage years, she lived in Canada. She saw first hand the benefits of having province-run health care, basic care for everyone.

 

[spring-peeper]

Seeing multiple polls looking positive for her…

It is still early in the campaign, and she could be enjoying the honeymoon stage of her campaign.

 

[JimW]

It is still early in the campaign, and she could be enjoying the honeymoon stage of her campaign.

I have a feeling the Republican attack strategy will put off more of the few remaining waverers than it wins over, and not sure there'll be any more negatives on her that didn't come out in her last brief run.

 

[Nine Bob Note]

I've been listening to the Mooch's podcast again (sorry). He likes Harris's chances (or doesn't want to admit he was wrong about Donny Dipshit being reelected), so long as she chooses Cooper from NC as VP candidate and sends him into the rust belt swing states to do the campaigning, and Trump is unable to behave himself for the next four months