Or, to put it another way, you can’t use a simple trolley problem as an analogy of something as complex as political decision-making?
Kamala Harris' time is up
- Thread starter krtek a houby
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Silas Loom
Hated by both sides
Actually, I think that trolley problems are quite a good analogy for decision making if you’re actually making political choices, at the sharp end of government. That’s where utilitarianism is most appropriate, and the trolley problem is a straightforward parable about utilitarianism triumphing over deontology when push comes to shove.
The problem is that utility doesn’t come into it when one exercises minuscule power, such as deciding who to vote or campaign for. When the most significant impact of one’s political actions is how they make one feel about oneself, deontology is a much better guide than utility.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
It's not really straightforward, though. There are a myriad of ways it can, and has, been clarified to make taking the five lives maximise the human benefit. Thought experiments and analogies are often useful ways of looking at complex problems, but they are also very easy to apply simplistically;y and, after all, all analogies break down eventually.
The trolley problem is a terrible analogy precisely because it begs the question. In its oversimplified world, the answer is already contained within the question. Of course it’s better for one unknown random to die than five unknown randoms, so the solution is tautologous. But that’s not how the real world works, where we disagree about what is the best outcome as well as how to achieve it. In fact, since the only thing that makes the trolley problem even slightly difficult is the notion of active agency, if you want to make it relevant then you’d have to say the “default” position that gives five deaths is the status quo (Democrats) whereas the “active” position of one death is a vote for the other guy. But that analogy is obviously shit too.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
How Harris fares vs. Trump in the polls
ABC News’ Rick Klein breaks down how Vice President Kamala Harris fares against former President Donald Trump with voters.
www.goodmorningamerica.com
bcuster
Well-Known Member
best explanation of the "trolley dilemma" I've ever heard...
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
Right authoritarians/nationalists have a horribly bad habit of loading the game in their favour once in power, filling the courts with yes-men, clamping down on free media and dissent. See how the likes of Orban, Erdogan, Modi, Putin etc have become eternal rulers. I wouldn’t consider a Trump victory as a route to revolution through making things shitter for people who then rise up, it’ll just cement in permanent shitness with the tech billionaire-sponsored boot stamping down forever.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
This is largely right, I think, but misses out one key factor. To move the lever from 5 people to 1, you still have to do it. In reality, not just as a thought experiment. Once you do consider that, there is a problem. Would I really want to actively kill someone? In the abstract, of course it's easy. The reality would be somewhat different.
That doesn't make much difference in this case, as any consequences would still be abstracted and so somewhat at a remove from your actions.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
I don't think it begs the question, there's reasonable disagreement about what one should do in a situation like that (and its an entrée in to a whole host of puzzles about proximity, acts and omissions, ends and side-effects etc.).
In any event, I think (perhaps I'm wrong) that everyone here thinks a Trump presidency would be worse than a Harris presidency and that the world would be a worse place if Trump won. I haven't seen anybody defend an accelerationist position that a Trump victory would hasten progressive change. The two positions I've seen in similar discussions here are:
"a lessor evil is still an evil" - this is the guy who refuses to turn the trolley because they don't want to be complicit in killing
"we need to break free of the two party system, build an alternative etc..." - this is the guy by the railway who says "we need safer railways so this sort of thing doesn't happen again" - tbh this is the real false binary in these discussions. And that was my point, we can make tactical short term interventions to prevent greater evils from emerging whilst being engaged in more long term efforts to improve the range of options people have.
Happy Tree
maagilises metsas
Hello! First post here. It is astounding to me that any human being can look at Trump and decide to vote for him. But here we are. I do hope Harris can win. I think it looks pretty hopeful, if only going by how scared Trump sounds about her. I also have a personal stake in Trump losing. Living in Estonia, I don't want Putin's aspirations given any more room to grow. And for him to be beaten by a woman of colour, chef's kiss. It's all to play for!
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krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Yeah, this kind of shit was being pushed a few years ago, and it's only going to get worse over the next few months. Whatever people think of her politics.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
the fact that the Republican party has people like her in it is a decisive reason alone why they need to be destroyed
strung out
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What if the five people in the trolley analogy are Trump, Putin, Xi, Farage and Joey Barton? What if the one person is Gareth Southgate?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
If it were Southgate the train would hurtle down the track before derailing itself at the very last possible moment.
Silas Loom
Hated by both sides
This is what people seem to be missing about trolley problems - there are infinite variations along these lines which tease out inconsistencies or quirks in our moral reasoning.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
We could add some vim to mm by casting Michael Buerk on the tracks
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
It's not tho. That just requires an adjustment of your calculation of 'doing the most good'. And one can always add a further element of detail that then contradicts your answer.
"What if it were 5 medical professionals v 1 Jeremy Hunt?"
"Ha! The five medical professionals were Lucy Letby, Harold Shipman, Jospeh Mengele and two other killers whose names I have just googled. V 1 Jeremy Hunt - but not that one."
bcuster
Well-Known Member
What does it mean to be Brat?
By definition, to be a brat is to misbehave. On Charli XCX’s album, she sings about her own sadness and insecurity in her life choices and friendships — while still celebrating her success and her love of partying. Society rarely allows women to be openly confident and openly sad at the same time. Brat behavior stands in defiance of that.“You’re just like that girl who is a little messy and likes to party and maybe says some dumb things sometimes,” Charli XCX said of the term in a TikTok video. “Who feels like herself but maybe also has a breakdown. But kind of like parties through it, is very honest, very blunt. A little bit volatile. Like, does dumb things. But it’s brat. You’re brat. That’s brat.”
We don’t know exactly why Charli XCX thinks Harris is Brat, it’s clear that her laughter and playful remarks have been memed countless times, she’s been endorsed by the president and dozens of other Democrats ahead of the DNC in August. She is both frequently joked about and in the running to lead the country — a brat-like dichotomy.
Kamala Harris is 'Brat,' says Charli XCX. Pop's resident 'it' girl would know.
The singer says Vice President Kamala Harris embodies the chaotic vibe of summer 2024.
bcuster, what do you think? I mean this is just filler nonsense, no?What does it mean to be Brat?
By definition, to be a brat is to misbehave. On Charli XCX’s album, she sings about her own sadness and insecurity in her life choices and friendships — while still celebrating her success and her love of partying. Society rarely allows women to be openly confident and openly sad at the same time. Brat behavior stands in defiance of that.
“You’re just like that girl who is a little messy and likes to party and maybe says some dumb things sometimes,” Charli XCX said of the term in a TikTok video. “Who feels like herself but maybe also has a breakdown. But kind of like parties through it, is very honest, very blunt. A little bit volatile. Like, does dumb things. But it’s brat. You’re brat. That’s brat.”
We don’t know exactly why Charli XCX thinks Harris is Brat, it’s clear that her laughter and playful remarks have been memed countless times, she’s been endorsed by the president and dozens of other Democrats ahead of the DNC in August. She is both frequently joked about and in the running to lead the country — a brat-like dichotomy.
Kamala Harris is 'Brat,' says Charli XCX. Pop's resident 'it' girl would know.
The singer says Vice President Kamala Harris embodies the chaotic vibe of summer 2024.www.yahoo.com
Why leave out Melanie Philips and Claire Fox...?
ska invita
back on the other side
Trump's anti-militarism is overstated but Biden has definitely got the bigger death toll by a margin of several tens of thousand times more
strung out
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Actually, I’m swapping out Farage for Elon Musk.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Has he? I guess you're including Gaza deaths here. But do you think Trump would have done any different, would have refused to help Israel and held them to account? I don't.
Biden took the US out of Afghanistan, which Trump failed to do. Biden took flak for that from all sides.
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