Kamala Harris' time is up

[ska invita]

I'm already seeing comments like this kind of thing from in this case Jamie Lee Curtis lol that Kamala "is a fierce advocate for women’s rights and people of color" and one pitfall for her is that she will be boxed off into those two identity-based issues.... its the rust belt and other swing seats that she really needs to win, and I've no idea if she has the vocabulary, never mind political desire to engage with that

 

[MickiQ]

This is a very long and thorough wiki article

Political positions of Kamala Harris - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The NRA and Club For Growth both seem to not like her, gotta be a couple of points in her favour.

 

[Brainaddict]

I'm already seeing comments like this kind of thing from in this case Jamie Lee Curtis lol that Kamala "is a fierce advocate for women’s rights and people of color" and one pitfall for her is that she will be boxed off into those two issues.... its the rust belt and other swing seats that she really needs to win, and I've no idea if she has the vocabulary, never mind political desire to engage with that

She seems to have spent her career trying/failing to reconcile some liberal instincts with a law and order instinct. As unpleasant as it will be for the likes of us, I suspect she'll start talking up her law and order credentials to try to win some of those swing states. And in a certain way I won't be able to blame her (within the rules of the Democratic party game). She'll have the liberal vote locked up pretty easily, particularly those who care about representation*, so it's kind of inevitable what she has to do next.

*Which is not to say it doesn't matter, but worth remembering that Biden probably achieved more for working class people in 4 years than Obama did in 8 years, partly because he felt the need to make concessions to his left flank while Obama didn't.

 

[ska invita]

She seems to have spent her career trying/failing to reconcile some liberal instincts with a law and order instinct. As unpleasant as it will be for the likes of us, I suspect she'll start talking up her law and order credentials to try to win some of those swing states. And in a certain way I won't be able to blame her (within the rules of the Democratic party game). She'll have the liberal vote locked up pretty easily, particularly those who care about representation*, so it's kind of inevitable what she has to do next.

*Which is not to say it doesn't matter, but worth remembering that Biden probably achieved more for working class people in 4 years than Obama did in 8 years, partly because he felt the need to make concessions to his left flank while Obama didn't.

I did read that Biden was the first US president to join a picket line which raised my eyebrows. I don't know what his record has been on "achievements for the working class" ...is there something concrete to point at?

For Kamala I don't think law and order alone is enough to swing it though, even if she is 'good' at doing that. She is a self-described capitalist and non-socialist, but its the nativist/renewal thing that really works for Trump and god knows what her equivalent of that is.

 

[Brainaddict]

I did read that Biden was the first US president to join a picket line which raised my eyebrows. I don't know what his record has been on "achievements for the working class" ...is there something concrete to point at?

He's done a surprising amount of good ole Keynsian stimulus which has been unsurprisingly beneficial for ordinary people What Has Biden Accomplished? Look at These 10 Metrics, Not the Polls

 

[zedr]

I haven't followed American politics closely since Obamas election, but it looks like Harris is going to have a hard time beating Trump. The whole electoral college system is even sillier than our FPTP and from the looks of it, she's starting from a losing position.

Realistically I don't think it makes much difference what votes in California or New York think of her, its all going to be down to voters in a handful of states. I don't know enough about her popularity or the demographic makeup of the swing states like Pennsylvania or Michigan to know how likely she is to pick up enough electoral college votes.

I wonder if both those states will pose her a similar issue to Labour here, hemorrhaging votes to the left on issues like Palestine. They've both got large metropolitan areas, decent union presence. Pennsylvania has obviously been in the news for its Palestine encampments but Michigan has also had a number of encampments. Biden and Harris don't seem very popular with people on the left, I wonder how much it will be a case of people holding their noses to vote out Trump.

 

[two sheds]

however bad harris would be on Palestine, trump would be a lot worse.

 

[zedr]

He's done a surprising amount of good ole Keynsian stimulus which has been unsurprisingly beneficial for ordinary people What Has Biden Accomplished? Look at These 10 Metrics, Not the Polls

I wonder how much this has had a noticeable impact on people. Lots of the vox pops I've seen (and yes, all the caveats about vox pops) seem to suggest that people still associate him with a poor economic record due to the pandemic. Whether that's them still feeling the pinch, America's economy being a genuine nightmare, or the general vibes based politics which vox pops encourage I don't know.

 

[Pickman's model]

He's done a surprising amount of good ole Keynsian stimulus which has been unsurprisingly beneficial for ordinary people What Has Biden Accomplished? Look at These 10 Metrics, Not the Polls

He's done extremely well on the genocide front. Clearly some lives are more valuable than others to you

 

[zedr]

however bad harris would be on Palestine, trump would be a lot worse.

I don't know about that. Trump is an isolationist. I don't think he'd be up for spending loads of money of a foreign country even if it is one so closely allied with the US.

Either way, it wasn't really a comment about the reality of what the presidential candidates would be like, more wondering how much people's perception of them would impact Harris' chances in a few swing states.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It's not a result I'd bet heavily on and I can't see America being gripped by Kamalamania but I think she's got a chance of winning - Trump may have peaked too early with the convention and surviving the assassination attempt, there's now more than 100 days in which America will be reminded that he has fuck-all new to bring to the table except the same old shit, as his convention speech showed

But it's also more than 100 days in which America will also be reminded that Harris and the Democrats also have fuck all new to bring to the table.....

Even the 'left' of the party has got fuck all new to bring to the table if the abysmal, uncritical ,support for Harris from Ocasio-Cortez is any reliable measurement of their position.

 

[ska invita]

I haven't followed American politics closely since Obamas election, but it looks like Harris is going to have a hard time beating Trump. The whole electoral college system is even sillier than our FPTP and from the looks of it, she's starting from a losing position.

Realistically I don't think it makes much difference what votes in California or New York think of her, its all going to be down to voters in a handful of states. I don't know enough about her popularity or the demographic makeup of the swing states like Pennsylvania or Michigan to know how likely she is to pick up enough electoral college votes.

I wonder if both those states will pose her a similar issue to Labour here, hemorrhaging votes to the left on issues like Palestine. They've both got large metropolitan areas, decent union presence. Pennsylvania has obviously been in the news for its Palestine encampments but Michigan has also had a number of encampments. Biden and Harris don't seem very popular with people on the left, I wonder how much it will be a case of people holding their noses to vote out Trump.

yes its not equivalent to UK as theres no other parties to split the vote, so anti-Trump vote will hold for the most part, but yes she's clearly starting from behind but she's got a lot of money to spend and theres a bit of time to campaign so its far from a done deal...all depends what she has to say for herself eta: as smokey says above though thats probably not a lot

 

[two sheds]

I don't know about that. Trump is an isolationist. I don't think he'd be up for spending loads of money of a foreign country even if it is one so closely allied with the US.

Either way, it wasn't really a comment about the reality of what the presidential candidates would be like, more wondering how much people's perception of them would impact Harris' chances in a few swing states.

You may be right about the isolationism but I can quite see him saying to Israel "get on with it ..." to anything they want to do.

 

[belboid]

It would be a fucking stupid idea for Biden to stand down early, which is good because it isn't going to happen.

All it would be saying was 'we lied to you for the last year and a bit when we said JB was fit to both be President and run for President.' There is a massive difference between accepting that you might not be up to something in a couple of years time and not being up to it right now.

Plus there is almost nothing KH could do that would show she was a great President in that time. Three months or so is plenty of time to fuck up tho, especially if you have folk like Orban or Putin desperately trying to make her fuck up.

 

[belboid]

yes its not equivalent to UK as theres no other parties to split the vote,

RFKjr is the third party candidate and looks likely to get the most significant third party vote for thirty years. Or he was when Biden was involved, it may drop a bit now it's not just an old man race. Add in the 'undeclared' electors voted in over Gaza, which is certainly important in two key swing states, and you've got enough of a split for the Orangeman to scare through.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Realistically I don't think it makes much difference what votes in California or New York think of her, its all going to be down to voters in a handful of states. I don't know enough about her popularity or the demographic makeup of the swing states like Pennsylvania or Michigan to know how likely she is to pick up enough electoral college votes.

I wonder if both those states will pose her a similar issue to Labour here, hemorrhaging votes to the left on issues like Palestine. They've both got large metropolitan areas, decent union presence. Pennsylvania has obviously been in the news for its Palestine encampments but Michigan has also had a number of encampments. Biden and Harris don't seem very popular with people on the left, I wonder how much it will be a case of people holding their noses to vote out Trump.

Yes, the rust belt swing states will decide the election. So, the question is which candidate speaks best to communities torn apart by deindustrialisation, collapsing wages, insecurity, the cost of living crisis, crime and poor healthcare.

The correct answer is neither Trump or Harris, but if you want to know the outcome of the election look how both are polling in the deindustrialised areas. Harris - Californian, Harvard, Lawyer, paid up member of the elite - will fail to appeal in these places in the same way that Hilary Clinton did (although I expect her at least to avoid calling these people 'deplorable').

The commentariat - having happily gone along with the lie that Biden was fine despite all of the evidence to contrary - is now trying to sell the idea that Trump wanted to face Biden and not Harris all along and that all bets are off etc.

But there is a good reason why Biden was shored up, protected and allowed to get this far despite his obvious failing health by the party: because he was their only candidiate who polled well against Trump in these communities.

 

[The39thStep]

But it's also more than 100 days in which America will also be reminded that Harris and the Democrats also have fuck all new to bring to the table.....

Even the 'left' of the party has got fuck all new to bring to the table if the abysmal, uncritical ,support for Harris from Ocasio-Cortez is any reliable measurement of their position.

It's very difficult sometimes not to be drawn to the binary Vote Biden/Harris to keep Trump out, vote Macron to keep Le Pen out, vote Starmer to get the Tories out. We could really do with some discussion on a balance sheet of what posters think the Biden administration has achieved for the working class in the US. ( Foreign policy is worthy of another discussion) .

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It's very difficult sometimes not to be drawn to the binary Vote Biden/Harris to keep Trump out, vote Macron to keep Le Pen out, vote Starmer to get the Tories out. We could really do with some discussion on a balance sheet of what posters think the Biden administration has achieved for the working class in the US. ( Foreign policy is worthy of another discussion) .

Yes. Whilst I fully understand the position the elite centrists - vote for us, we are the only alternative to Trump/LePen/the Tories and we are the professionals - its harder to understand why so many people here have so readily fallen into line with it.

It also elides the reasons and causes of the rise of the right populists... they didn't appear from thin air.

 

[emanymton]

I don't know about that. Trump is an isolationist. I don't think he'd be up for spending loads of money of a foreign country even if it is one so closely allied with the US.

Either way, it wasn't really a comment about the reality of what the presidential candidates would be like, more wondering how much people's perception of them would impact Harris' chances in a few swing states.

Did you forget about this?

United States recognition of Jerusalem as capital of Israel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[ska invita]

Did you forget about this?

United States recognition of Jerusalem as capital of Israel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

tbf that wasnt non-isolationist and it didnt cost anything

 

[Jeff Robinson]

It's very difficult sometimes not to be drawn to the binary Vote Biden/Harris to keep Trump out, vote Macron to keep Le Pen out, vote Starmer to get the Tories out. We could really do with some discussion on a balance sheet of what posters think the Biden administration has achieved for the working class in the US. ( Foreign policy is worthy of another discussion) .

I don't follow US domestic politics much, but I think Biden is considered a relatively progressive president on things like workers rights:

8 Ways the Biden Administration Has Fought for Working People by Strengthening Unions

At a time when Americans are at their most pro-union, President Joe Biden and his administration are using all the levers of government to support working people and unions.

www.americanprogressaction.org

 

[zedr]

Did you forget about this?

United States recognition of Jerusalem as capital of Israel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I did forget about that, yes. And its fucked up.

I'm not trying to say Trump will be good for Palestine. He's been on record telling Netanyahu to finish the job. I don't think it contradicts the idea that Trump might be less likely to spend money supporting Israel and the ongoing genocide. I may be wrong about that though.

However, as I said, what the reality of the situation is isn't really the issue when it comes to the election. Its how American voters in a handful of states perceive the issue.

 

[emanymton]

It's very difficult sometimes not to be drawn to the binary Vote Biden/Harris to keep Trump out, vote Macron to keep Le Pen out, vote Starmer to get the Tories out. We could really do with some discussion on a balance sheet of what posters think the Biden administration has achieved for the working class in the US. ( Foreign policy is worthy of another discussion) .

I think Trump and Le Pen are a different level of threat than that possed by the tories here.

It's difficult because in a lot of cases there simply is no other option at the moment and you have to play with the hand you are dealt. Playing that hand may make you next hand worse but if it is all you have what else can you do?

There is nothing wrong with voting to keep the likes of Trump out. The problem is when that becomes campaigning for Biden, giving money to the Biden campaign, not being critical of Biden.

 

[emanymton]

tbf that wasnt non-isolationist and it didnt cost anything

While this is true, I don't like this idea that somehow he is better on Israel, he really isn't.

And I think anyone hoping a Trump win means an improvement on US policy to Israel will be very disappointed.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Think its very difficult to predict how Harris as the candidate will play out. We got no idea how she will come accross to the american and how will she perform stepping out of Bidens shadow. We dont know what sort of brain farts and shit flinging trump is going to unleash and what effect they will have. you can make reasonable arguments for everything from "Harris will be seen as elite stooge who will alienate blue colour workers" to "trump will be shown up as an ageing demented, dangerous disaster on stilts by Harris's intelligence and humanity" . And who knows what events might happen between now and november? One thing though - there will be intense focus on Harris and the democrat candidate selection from now on and nobody is talking about Trumps MAGA ear shot.

 

[The39thStep]

I think Trump and Le Pen are a different level of threat than that possed by the tories here.

It's difficult because in a lot of cases there simply is no other option at the moment and you have to play with the hand you are dealt. Playing that hand may make you next hand worse but if it is all you have what else can you do?

There is nothing wrong with voting to keep the likes of Trump out. The problem is when that becomes campaigning for Biden, giving money to the Biden campaign, not being critical of Biden.

Hence my question as to what Bidenomics has achieved for the working class, I'd need to know what I would be voting for rather than against if I was in the States

 

[Petcha]

I didn't realise until this morning when it was kicking off on Twitter about Owen Jones' posts that Harris' hubby is a wealthy Zionist in his own right. So I guess we can't expect a stop of the flow of the weapons if she does win.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hence my question as to what Bidenomics has achieved for the working class, I'd need to know what I would be voting for rather than against if I was in the States

In today's topsy turvy world, the only way to get a stimulus package through congress is to call it an anti-stimulus package. That's what the Inflation Reduction Act is. Nothing to do with reducing inflation. In fact, it is an achievement to avoid increasing inflation through such a stimulus package.

I would forcefully argue that investment in Green industry benefits everyone in the long run and the working class in particular, as the effects of climate change will be more serious for individuals the poorer they are. You might not agree, and we could argue over that. Trumpists would no doubt argue the reverse, that it is an elite concern. But that doesn't make them right.

Domestically - as far as US presidents go, which isn't very far - Biden has done some things wrt working class concerns. Trump, meanwhile, has a domestic record in which he says he's on the side of, say, coal miners, then does absolutely fuck all to help them when in office, instead choosing to make the rich even richer.

However, I don't agree with your premise. Even if Biden had done nothing for the working class, his inaction would not in and of itself constitute a reason to vote for a wannabe Fascist. The reason you don't vote for a wannabe Fascist is that they're a wannabe Fascist. Them being a wannabe Fascist makes just about anybody else preferable. Doesn't mean you wildly support that anbody else. You can vote for someone while still thinking they're a cunt. Just not quite a Fascist cunt.

 

[petee]

The correct answer is neither Trump or Harris, but if you want to know the outcome of the election look how both are polling in the deindustrialised areas. Harris - Californian, Harvard, Lawyer, paid up member of the elite - will fail to appeal in these places in the same way that Hilary Clinton did

trump: new yorker, wharton, billionaire, paid up member of the elite. clinton didn’t appeal, but trump did. whatever could the difference be?

 

[MickiQ]

I think we can all agree that a Harris presidency is not going to issue in an era of international peace and global prosperity but it's still better than the Orange Madman getting back in.