LDC
On est tous des pangolins
This why we're not agreeing and talking across each other, for me it has absolutely nothing to do with environmental impact.
Just Stop Oil
- Thread starter cybershot
- Start date
This why we're not agreeing and talking across each other, for me it has absolutely nothing to do with environmental impact.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
The people were blocking drivers weren't they? Not private jets. If they were blocking private jets we'd be having a different discussion.
My argument was this type of action (blockading cars going to a festival) pits people that should be working together and on the same page about climate change and the need for measures to mitigate it as enemies, while letting off the people that have the power to make the changes, are not doing so, and are making profits from hydrocarbons off the hook, and also enables them to paint climate activists as being 'against people' generally.
My argument was this type of action (blockading cars going to a festival) pits people that should be working together and on the same page about climate change and the need for measures to mitigate it as enemies, while letting off the people that have the power to make the changes, are not doing so, and are making profits from hydrocarbons off the hook, and also enables them to paint climate activists as being 'against people' generally.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
And perhaps you should read this and then compare it with Burning Man:
How sustainable is Glastonbury Festival? - The Eco Experts
Glastonbury Festival attracts 200,000 people, creates 2,000 tonnes of waste, and uses 30,000kW of electricity – but what is its carbon footprint?www.theecoexperts.co.uk
That's so full of holes I don't know where to start.
editor
hiraethified
How do you think people get from the private jets to the festival?
The place even has its own airport, for fuck's sake.
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
Yeah but surely the average distance travelled to Burning Man and back home is over twice that of Glastonbury, and in generally more gas guzzling vehicles as is standard for most vehicles in the US. It's not a great like for like comparison.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
The reason these people get so upset is because it's inconvenient and the obvious answer is yes, it is, but indulging in decadent consumer spectacles in remote places is more so in the long run. No festivals on a dead planet. etc.
The reality is that most of the people in those convoys aren't thinking "gosh, all this pollution I'm pumping out is at everyone else's direct long-term cost" as they prepare for a few days of drugs and debauchery, and for many that minor holdup was probably the first actual confrontation about such behaviour that they'd ever experienced.
There is a place for confrontation, given the speed with which our climate is deteriorating. Tying up production directly can be more effective in many ways but industry is also driven by demand, by consumption habits, which come from the public. And you can see how the public can get once people have swallowed the marketing and think of their purchases as personal entitlements rather than collective impositions. They don't listen to inconvenient counter-arguments. "I pay my road tax" - alright, so that keeps the roads you drive on in shape, what about the rest? Driving isn't a neutral act, it pollutes our surroundings through sight, sound, and smell, endangers us through its speed and weight. But the act of driving is treated as broadly inviolate, blockages are considered a social outrage. There's little to no discussion over whether the trade-off of one person's speed/convenience for everyone else's inconvenience is justifiable. That mindset does, to a degree at least, need direct challenges - unpopular though such challenges will often be.
The reality is that most of the people in those convoys aren't thinking "gosh, all this pollution I'm pumping out is at everyone else's direct long-term cost" as they prepare for a few days of drugs and debauchery, and for many that minor holdup was probably the first actual confrontation about such behaviour that they'd ever experienced.
There is a place for confrontation, given the speed with which our climate is deteriorating. Tying up production directly can be more effective in many ways but industry is also driven by demand, by consumption habits, which come from the public. And you can see how the public can get once people have swallowed the marketing and think of their purchases as personal entitlements rather than collective impositions. They don't listen to inconvenient counter-arguments. "I pay my road tax" - alright, so that keeps the roads you drive on in shape, what about the rest? Driving isn't a neutral act, it pollutes our surroundings through sight, sound, and smell, endangers us through its speed and weight. But the act of driving is treated as broadly inviolate, blockages are considered a social outrage. There's little to no discussion over whether the trade-off of one person's speed/convenience for everyone else's inconvenience is justifiable. That mindset does, to a degree at least, need direct challenges - unpopular though such challenges will often be.
Last edited:
Parachute?
editor
hiraethified
And for some perspective:
The festival in the middle of Nevada, Black Rock City, is roughly FIVE TIMES the size of Glastonbury, sitting at an astonishing 5.5 square miles. That is also roughly the size of downtown San Francisco
Thought Glasto Was Big? Wait Until You See These Aerial Pictures Over Burning Man Festival
These are the pictures that show the vast scale of the annual Burning Man Festival - that is set to be home to around 65,000 residents as they gather for a week-long party.uk.sports.yahoo.com
editor
hiraethified
It's going to be considerably more than twice the distance given its incredibly remote location:
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Not to sound too Soviet about it, but we're coming to the end of a long period of unabashed individual indulgence, propped up and constantly propagandised/fetishised by consumer capitalism. There's two extremes we can go to in that process, one being the soft landing (society becomes more collectively-minded, we progressively learn to work with less), the other being the hard landing (social collapse). But what's needed for the soft landing involves telling stubborn bastards they can't have all the toys any more. That's never going to be popular, there's no way of doing it which doesn't involve facing them down and making a bunch of people absolutely furious.
editor
hiraethified
So how would you envisage an environmentally friendly version of Burning Man if it remains in the desert with no public transport, no railways, and no way to cycle there, with its requirement for huge gas guzzling RVs and SUVs as the main mode of transport, along with its own airport to ferry in the super rich?
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
This goes to the heart of the false dichotomy between system change and personal change. System change will mean a change in people's lifestyles. It will mean winners and losers however well crafted policies are to try to create a just transition.
We can't pussyfoot around the fact that ordinary working class people are going to be inconvenienced by the transition ahead. And that the most egregious examples of over-consumption are going to have to be tackled. It all comes back to a kind of public luxury, private sufficiency message but I don't think that's been well articulated so far.
One obvious advantage of Burning Man as a target is that it symbolises consumptive excess. Symbols are important. It’s an easily understood line in the literal sand: “this is the kind of thing we should be viewing as unacceptable.”
And to invert the symbolism for a sec: it’s hard to tell people that they should be walking instead of driving that last mile when they can just point to rich people pointlessly driving hundreds of miles into a desert and ask why you aren’t haranguing them first.
And to invert the symbolism for a sec: it’s hard to tell people that they should be walking instead of driving that last mile when they can just point to rich people pointlessly driving hundreds of miles into a desert and ask why you aren’t haranguing them first.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
How do you think people get from the private jets to the festival?
The place even has its own airport, for fuck's sake.
Glastonbury has its own heliport
Not to say that BM isn't ludicrous, cos of course it is.
editor
hiraethified
Yes, and it's carrying a tiny fraction of people into Glastonbury, is only available for limited times and doesn't cover the huge distances of private jets into the Burning Man. And the Burning Man airport is hugely more busy.
But, also, fuck heliports at festivals.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Hedonism perhaps, but I'm not sure about consumptive excess. I think most excessive consumpters wouldn't dream of roughing it in the desert like that, it's hardly a luxury event:
"The state of Nevada sees Burning Man-related transactions totalling $35 million every year ($500 per attendee). In 2013, 66 percent attendees reported expenses in excess of $250 to and from that year’s festival – 18 percent spent over $1,000."
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Try living on the route from London to Isle of Wight festival...
editor
hiraethified
I would have thought it was devastatingly obvious why Nevada doesn't make much money from the festival.
And roughing it? You're having a laugh. I've lived in far far worse flats than many of the RVs you'll see at the festival. Some RVs are positively luxurious.
Here's what the inside of Burning Man's luxury camps for billionaires and celebrities looks like
Susan Sarandon and Suki Waterhouse stayed at a luxury Burning Man camp site back in 2015 — but even VIPs had to use an outhouse.
www.businessinsider.com
Roughing it in a RV
How to Experience the Burning Man in Luxury: A Guide for the Rich and Famous
The Burning Man is a week-long festival of art, culture, community, and self-expression in the Nevada desert. It’s an amazing and…
Burning Man - Galavante (Travel & Lifestyle Website)
Ever wanted to experience Burning Man for yourself? If so, we have all the details and expert tips for how to do it right.
galavante.com
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
To be fair to Burning Man, the ridiculous luxury camps are not representative of the average attendee's experience. And there's been a long history of division within the movement about the luxury stuff, with some attempts to crack down on elements of it: Burning Man fights back against concierge services and ‘turn key’ accomodation
Glastonbury has incentivised travel by coach and train for decades. BM mentions nothing accept how to get there by car.
survival.burningman.org
Getting To & From BRC
Below you will find driving directions to Black Rock City, coming from all points on the compass. Some GPS apps may direct you to take unpaved roads and highways in rural Nevada. Stick to paved highways or risk some major...
survival.burningman.org
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Glastonbury has incentivised travel by coach and train for decades. BM mentions nothing accept how to get there by car.
Getting To & From BRC
Below you will find driving directions to Black Rock City, coming from all points on the compass. Some GPS apps may direct you to take unpaved roads and highways in rural Nevada. Stick to paved highways or risk some major...
If you actually look properly they have something about buses and carshare, but again this action is emblematic of poor politics and an likely unworkable political strategy imo.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
No idea, and I think it's completely politically unimportant and a red herring, but I'm sure it's not beyond the ability of humans to have a festival in the desert post-fossil fuel capitalism. I'd hope that as part of revolutionary restructuring of society our relationship to events like this, leisure time, holidays and work will also be fundamentally changed.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
No, I agree partly with that chilango but also that an important part of the political project is making the argument to them about why we should be on the same page with this, and also identifying, making clear and targeting the people that profit from fossil fuels and are pushing to continue their extraction, not addressing personal consumption as the primary issue. This type of thing is exactly what we shouldn't be doing, to some extent it plays into the hands of people who say it is all about personal consumption, something we need to put huge political effort into getting over, not reinforcing. (Even though I know stuff like personal consumption does have to change, I think doing it this way will not work and also might be detrimental to the wider struggle about climate change.)
I also partly agree with Rob Ray's last few posts as well. I'd still argue this is most likely a shit political strategy though, and some of those arguing that it isn't have more convinced me that it is with their positions and political arguments.
Last edited:
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Nobody has suggested there is such a thing, various tendencies and political strategies have been discussed, not 'perfect things to protest about' ffs.
I imagine from that we've got fundamentally different politics, so not surprised we might have a different political strategy (if you have one?) on this issue.
Similar threads
