Just Stop Oil

[chilango]

Or burning men everywhere for all on a dead planet!

 

[LDC]

On a related topic (travel but it can equally apply to Burning Man and Glastonbury etc.) I thought this was worth a read...

Why did tourists keep coming as Rhodes and Maui burned? It’s about far more than denial | Moya Lothian-McLean

As the world heats up, we need to confront what our urge to travel is really rooted in, says Moya Lothian-McLean, a contributing editor at Novara Media

www.theguardian.com

 

[editor]

I think in my future world events like Burning Man, festivals etc. should happen, hopefully even more of them. And yeah for sure in a different less resource intensive way, but to start targeting them now I think is flawed as a political strategy.

To me they're like a poster boy for selfish, elitist, conspicuous consumption. The world's in crisis and this event is all about the things we should be opposing: things like private jets, SUVs and massive RVs, and needlessly polluting events.

If the rich want an exclusive, miles-from-anywhere festival to attend, move it to somewhere near a remote railway station where everything can be brought in by rail because this is ridiculous and unacceptable:

 

[klang]

wonder what difference that little roadblock really made to the actual traffic jam....

 

[klang]

also, the reaction of those seroid cops alone makes me want to side with the protesters.

 

[LDC]

To me they're like a poster boy for selfish, elitist, conspicuous consumption. The world's in crisis and this event is all about the things we should be opposing: things like private jets, SUVs and massive RVs, and needlessly polluting events.

If the rich want an exclusive, miles-from-anywhere festival to attend, move it to somewhere near a remote railway station where everything can be brought in by rail because this is ridiculous and unacceptable.

What's a needlessly polluting event? I mean pretty much anything could fall into that category? Who's deciding this as a criteria for what's a fair target? As I said I think using 'fair/legitimate' is a terrible and almost worthless metric for climate activism.

I also absolutely disagree that it's all about opposing things like this, I think it's likely a complete strategic dead end at best, at worst damages the climate movement.

But I'm not arguing BM is great and without problems. But this isn't about BM, it's about global climate change and how we build a movement and create the political conditions to be able to 'fix it'. If the answer is targeting festivals (even in part) I think we're fucked.

I'm asking for how some people briefly blockading a road to BM translates into that, which nobody has answered. At best it seems to be "Well this is bad so we'll disrupt it a bit."

 

[editor]

What's a needlessly polluting event? I mean pretty much anything could fall into that category? Who's deciding this as a criteria for what's a fair target? As I said I think using 'fair/legitimate' is a terrible and almost worthless metric for climate activism.

Oh come on. You don't think an event held in the fucking desert and only accessibly via private jet/helicopter or massive gas guzzling vehicles is needlessly polluting? Really?

 

[editor]

I'm asking for how some people briefly blockading a road to BM translates into that, which nobody has answered. At best it seems to be "Well this is bad so we'll disrupt it a bit."

It's done a brilliant job of highlighting the environmental damage created by this event and got people discussing whether it's the kind of thing that should be happening in a climate crisis.

 

[LDC]

Oh come on. You don't think an event held in the fucking desert and only accessibly via private jet/helicopter or massive gas guzzling vehicles is needlessly polluting? Really?

I was asking more generally though, not BM specific.

A quick look at the BM website shows carshares and buses there, so I do think you're being slightly unfair. But again, I think BM itself is irrelevant really.

 

[lazythursday]

What's a needlessly polluting event? I mean pretty much anything could fall into that category? Who's deciding this as a criteria for what's a fair target? As I said I think using 'fair/legitimate' is a terrible and almost worthless metric for climate activism.

I also absolutely disagree that it's all about opposing things like this, I think it's likely a complete strategic dead end at best, at worst damages the climate movement.

But I'm not arguing BM is great and without problems. But this isn't about BM, it's about global climate change and how we build a movement and create the political conditions to be able to 'fix it'. If the answer is targeting festivals (even in part) I think we're fucked.

I'm asking for how some people briefly blockading a road to BM translates into that, which nobody has answered. At best it seems to be "Well this is bad so we'll disrupt it a bit."

I guess you could argue that we need a wholesale cultural change in terms of how we consume. Even if we have massive redistribution of wealth, we also need to shift consumption patterns away from high carbon products and experiences. There's no getting away from the fact that a post-carbon world has to be a very different one in terms of our view of wasteful use of resources. This kind of action could be part of shifting that perspective.

 

[LDC]

It's done a brilliant job of highlighting the environmental damage created by this event and got people discussing whether it's the kind of thing that should be happening in a climate crisis.

I don't think people should be getting long haul flights on holiday really, but I would think blockading them is a terrible strategy.

 

[LDC]

I guess you could argue that we need a wholesale cultural change in terms of how we consume. Even if we have massive redistribution of wealth, we also need to shift consumption patterns away from high carbon products and experiences. There's no getting away from the fact that a post-carbon world has to be a very different one in terms of our view of wasteful use of resources. This kind of action could be part of shifting that perspective.

Yeah, that's about the only reason that I think stands up at all. But balanced against the negatives that this type of action has in making it all/mostly about personal choice/carbon footprints, and pitting people that should really be on the same side against one another. I guess we'll be able to make a clearer stab at the usefulness of this direction in the years to come...

 

[platinumsage]

It's done a brilliant job of highlighting the environmental damage created by this event and got people discussing whether it's the kind of thing that should be happening in a climate crisis.

If it was permanently cancelled in a massive victory by the protestors it would make fuck all difference to the climate crisis.

 

[chilango]

For me, the difficulty is I know what I think needs to be done, but I am not going to do it.

So what next?

 

[chilango]

If it was permanently cancelled in a massive victory by the protestors it would make fuck all difference to the climate crisis.

It'll be cancelled in a few short years anyway.

 

[LDC]

For me, the difficulty is I know what I think needs to be done, but I am not going to do it.

So what next?

Indeed. And I think that's a little bit of why I think the way I do with these type of things; in that they feel like absolutely pointless and completely out of sync with the scale of the problem, and them happening almost plays into the narrative that it's just all not that serious.

 

[lazythursday]

Yeah, that's about the only reason that I think stands up at all. But balanced against the negatives that this type of action has in making it all/mostly about personal choice/carbon footprints, and pitting people that should really be on the same side against one another. I guess we'll be able to make a clearer stab at the usefulness of this direction in the years to come...

I agree it's not all about the personal choice / carbon footprints of the ordinary person as such - given that they are trapped in unsustainable systems.

But it IS about the carbon footprints of the rich.

 

[Artaxerxes]

This was the traffic created by Burning Man last year.

View attachment 389497

View attachment 389498

It's a celebration of gas guzzling.

Worse it’s one that drapes itself in counterculture vibes and pretends it’s against the status quo

 

[Indeliblelink]

There's already an alternative Burning Man the week after, Renegade Burn. Free entry, no queueing.

 

[editor]

A quick look at the BM website shows carshares and buses there, so I do think you're being slightly unfair.

You've seen size of the traffic queues, right?

 

[editor]

Yeah, that's about the only reason that I think stands up at all. But balanced against the negatives that this type of action has in making it all/mostly about personal choice/carbon footprints, and pitting people that should really be on the same side against one another. I guess we'll be able to make a clearer stab at the usefulness of this direction in the years to come...

What makes you think most people who go to the Burning Man are on the 'same side' as environmentalists?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The same arguments could apply to theme parks. Alton Towers averages around 2.5 million visitors a year and all of those can’t be coach excursions and visits by public transport. We could cancel holidays full stop especially those reached via plane. Doubt it would get many on board though (pun unintended).

 

[platinumsage]

You've seen size of the traffic queues, right?

Perhaps they're not as photogenic as a Burning Man queue in the desert but Glastonbury car parks cover 55 fields.

 

[editor]

The same arguments could apply to theme parks. Alton Towers averages around 2.5 million visitors a year and all of those can’t be coach excursions and visits by public transport.

What? You're actually comparing the environmental cost of travelling to Alton Towers with this?

We could cancel holidays full stop especially those reached via plane. Doubt it would get many on board though (pun unintended).

Formidable strawman there. No one is asking for holidays to be cancelled, You sound ridiculous.

 

[editor]

Perhaps they're not as photogenic as a Burning Man queue in the desert but Glastonbury car parks cover 55 fields.

Have you any comparisons for the amount of people arriving at Glastonbury by public transport vs Burning Man?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

What? You're actually comparing the environmental cost of travelling to Alton Towers with this?

View attachment 389525



Formidable strawman there. No one is asking for holidays to be cancelled, You sound ridiculous.

2.5 million attendees vs 80,000 annually was the point.

 

[platinumsage]

Have you any comparisons for the amount of people arriving at Glastonbury by public transport vs Burning Man?

I don't, although this article says the majority arrive by car. Given that over 200,000 attend Glastonbury, and only 80,000 attend Burning Man, you can see that more people arrive by car at Glastonbury than they do at Burning Man.

 

[editor]

I don't, although this article says the majority arrive by car. Given that over 200,000 attend Glastonbury, and only 80,000 attend Burning Man, you can see that more people arrive by car at Glastonbury than they do at Burning Man.

Sorry, what percentage of people do you think arrive at Burning man by car?

And perhaps you should read this and then compare it with Burning Man:

Glastonbury. The time of the summer when 200,000 revellers turn Somerset’s Worthy Farm into a manic, magical, often muddy tribute to music that produces a carbon footprint of -596.25 tonnes of CO2e.

That’s right: the biggest UK music festival, which attracts more than 200,000 attendees and creates 2,000 tonnes of rubbish each year, actually has a net positive impact on the climate.

To put this into perspective, if these punters didn’t go to Glastonbury, those same 200,000 fans would, in five days, produce 17,260 tonnes of CO2e.

How sustainable is Glastonbury Festival? - The Eco Experts

Glastonbury Festival attracts 200,000 people, creates 2,000 tonnes of waste, and uses 30,000kW of electricity – but what is its carbon footprint?

www.theecoexperts.co.uk

 

[editor]

2.5 million attendees vs 80,000 annually was the point.

The point is the environmental impact.

 

[LDC]

What makes you think most people who go to the Burning Man are on the 'same side' as environmentalists?

I said should be on the same side. But a discussion about 'sides' and who is or isn't could be interesting in terms of climate strategy. The idea that people are on the 'same side' based on whether go to Burning Man or flight or not, etc etc is a completely fucked up political position. Sides isn't about personal choices in what you do or don't do.