FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I recall in a previous round of US wildfires it was apparently antifa who were coming in and starting them. According to Facebook anyway.
Just Stop Oil
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
This. totally.
When I do have discussions about JSO, they generally do involve someone saying 'yeah, they're right about the issue, but what the hell is the point of [whatever they've just done]?'
Which brings us straight onto tactics about how to fight climate change. A more important discussion really than 'is climate change bad and should we be against it?'
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
So they're generating discussion about effective tactics by using ineffective ones? A bit like how celebrities generate discussion about excessive air travel by using private jets?
I'm surprised they aren't starting wildfires using that logic.
I'm surprised they aren't starting wildfires using that logic.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Sadly they're not generating discussion about demands, the limited aim of no licences for new oil and gas being tinkering round the edges and not addressing the more central societal transformation the situation demands
Flavour
hang the bankers
They're generating a discussion around tactics by doing something. It is intended to provoke debate. Celebrities don't deliberately provoke debate around their own excesses (or at least, not usually). You're just being willfully obstinate as usual. Starting wildfires for fucks sake.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
You think the target is the people in traffic being held up?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
It's funny how "demanding the UK Government stop licensing all new oil, gas and coal projects through non-violent civil resistance" has became "provoke debate on tactics to combat climate change by demonstrating the use of ineffective or harmful tactics that don't combat climate change". It's a rather pathetic attempt at post-rationalisation.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I think there's a couple of underlying problems with this discussion about JSO and what kind of activity they/we need to be doing.
1) We're projecting some level of our own politics onto JSO. They're not revolutionary anarchist or communists, they not even strictly speaking clearly leftwing, although I'm sure many individuals involved are. So criticisms need to take this into account, or at least be aware of it. We could also spend all our time slagging off Greenpeace for not being eco-revolutionaries, and while it'd be true it'd also be a bit pointless. I do think this illustrates something that's broken with our politics; it becomes about what they do rather than what they think or want, so we see direct action and civil disobedience and consider them as somewhat a part of what the other social movements and groups are, but there's a chance they're actually something quite different than what's come before.
2) The mechanisms by which we can cause political change have been absolutely broken the last decades. It's not just climate, but most other 'issues' as well. And this is why the, "Well what would you do?" question is really difficult; because really in the current conditions the answer is pretty much the same as nearly every other 'problem'. And that is build community and workplace based class power on a local and global level that has a revolutionary left perspective that can wield actual power. But given we struggle to do that generally on other issues it seems very unlikely given the timescales we need to have change in that it will work for climate change. So that leaves us very fucked basically. We have a problem that needs a spanner, but we've lost the spanner and all we have is a bunch of other unsuitable tools. What do we do, use them and forget the spanner? Or look it and hope we can find it before the broken pipe explodes? Or try to do both at the same time? (Sorry, that's a shit analogy.)
I'm not bothered more generally about 'disruption' as such, nearly all political activity like direct action involves some level of it, as has been mentioned the strikes are hugely disruptive. My actual concerns with the type of actions JSO have been doing are:
1) The battle over climate change is going to be in part fought as a 'culture war' (urgh...) and we can increasingly see that now in the media and political parties. There's talk of a 'netzero referendum' which would be a complete fucking disaster. Our response to this problem has to be very political and point the fingers and shout in the right direction very loudly and clearly, and these actions don't do that at all. That these types of JSO actions give people and institutions the easy chance to paint any measures to mitigate climate as being 'against normal people' is really very problematic. The slow walking is exactly the type of thing we need to avoid doing. Of course they'll try and do that whatever gets done, but let's not give them an easy own goal.
2) The immense changes needed require the involvement of a large number of people, either actively or at least supportively. JSO and similar create a spectacle of activism as specialisation and activists as special people. This argument/point has been done to death over years much more coherently than I can say, but it holds true and we need to make sure climate actions and what's needed is as normal and accessible as possible, not about some people walking slowly in the road and getting grief from frustated people trying to get to work. It's pits people against people, not people against climate change/the State/corporations/etc.
3) For many people climate change is really abstract; actions need to try and get around that and concretize (is that a word?) the problem and solutions into things people can imagine and grasp and maybe enact. Some of JSO's activity actually further mystify climate change and what needs to be done. As has been said above people look at the what JSO are doing and struggle to get how that's connected to climate change beyond it being a kind of collective shout of frustration and desperation. And understandably tbh as much of what they're doing is many, many steps away from climate change or stopping it; it's just semi-random social and media related disruption to get attention. Great, but what's next?
4) Which brings me to... what exactly is the medium to long term political strategy with things like sports events disruption and slow walking blocking traffic? There seems to be no attempt to think beyond that. It's exactly the same problem XR had with their flawed disruption, clog the jails, gets 3% of the population onside and then Bob's your uncle; systems crumble. How do they imagine this goes in the next months and years? XR had no plan and it looks like JSO don't either.
As ever these are just thoughts rather than answers or fixed positions. On a wider level I do have significant doubts that we as a species living in our current global system have the actual capacity and social ability for enacting and managing change on this huge level, there's just too much fragmentation, competing and vested interests, etc. I also don't feel optimistic that if any significant changes are brought it that they're likely to happen in an egalitarian way at all, much more likely to penalise everybody but the rich and leave us with a 'green' but highly divided and unequal dystopia.
It's true that things can change very quickly under pressure, but we needs to a global reconfiguring of the entire system in the next few decades to avoid the worst, and currently that doesn't look very likely to me...
1) We're projecting some level of our own politics onto JSO. They're not revolutionary anarchist or communists, they not even strictly speaking clearly leftwing, although I'm sure many individuals involved are. So criticisms need to take this into account, or at least be aware of it. We could also spend all our time slagging off Greenpeace for not being eco-revolutionaries, and while it'd be true it'd also be a bit pointless. I do think this illustrates something that's broken with our politics; it becomes about what they do rather than what they think or want, so we see direct action and civil disobedience and consider them as somewhat a part of what the other social movements and groups are, but there's a chance they're actually something quite different than what's come before.
2) The mechanisms by which we can cause political change have been absolutely broken the last decades. It's not just climate, but most other 'issues' as well. And this is why the, "Well what would you do?" question is really difficult; because really in the current conditions the answer is pretty much the same as nearly every other 'problem'. And that is build community and workplace based class power on a local and global level that has a revolutionary left perspective that can wield actual power. But given we struggle to do that generally on other issues it seems very unlikely given the timescales we need to have change in that it will work for climate change. So that leaves us very fucked basically. We have a problem that needs a spanner, but we've lost the spanner and all we have is a bunch of other unsuitable tools. What do we do, use them and forget the spanner? Or look it and hope we can find it before the broken pipe explodes? Or try to do both at the same time? (Sorry, that's a shit analogy.)
I'm not bothered more generally about 'disruption' as such, nearly all political activity like direct action involves some level of it, as has been mentioned the strikes are hugely disruptive. My actual concerns with the type of actions JSO have been doing are:
1) The battle over climate change is going to be in part fought as a 'culture war' (urgh...) and we can increasingly see that now in the media and political parties. There's talk of a 'netzero referendum' which would be a complete fucking disaster. Our response to this problem has to be very political and point the fingers and shout in the right direction very loudly and clearly, and these actions don't do that at all. That these types of JSO actions give people and institutions the easy chance to paint any measures to mitigate climate as being 'against normal people' is really very problematic. The slow walking is exactly the type of thing we need to avoid doing. Of course they'll try and do that whatever gets done, but let's not give them an easy own goal.
2) The immense changes needed require the involvement of a large number of people, either actively or at least supportively. JSO and similar create a spectacle of activism as specialisation and activists as special people. This argument/point has been done to death over years much more coherently than I can say, but it holds true and we need to make sure climate actions and what's needed is as normal and accessible as possible, not about some people walking slowly in the road and getting grief from frustated people trying to get to work. It's pits people against people, not people against climate change/the State/corporations/etc.
3) For many people climate change is really abstract; actions need to try and get around that and concretize (is that a word?) the problem and solutions into things people can imagine and grasp and maybe enact. Some of JSO's activity actually further mystify climate change and what needs to be done. As has been said above people look at the what JSO are doing and struggle to get how that's connected to climate change beyond it being a kind of collective shout of frustration and desperation. And understandably tbh as much of what they're doing is many, many steps away from climate change or stopping it; it's just semi-random social and media related disruption to get attention. Great, but what's next?
4) Which brings me to... what exactly is the medium to long term political strategy with things like sports events disruption and slow walking blocking traffic? There seems to be no attempt to think beyond that. It's exactly the same problem XR had with their flawed disruption, clog the jails, gets 3% of the population onside and then Bob's your uncle; systems crumble. How do they imagine this goes in the next months and years? XR had no plan and it looks like JSO don't either.
As ever these are just thoughts rather than answers or fixed positions. On a wider level I do have significant doubts that we as a species living in our current global system have the actual capacity and social ability for enacting and managing change on this huge level, there's just too much fragmentation, competing and vested interests, etc. I also don't feel optimistic that if any significant changes are brought it that they're likely to happen in an egalitarian way at all, much more likely to penalise everybody but the rich and leave us with a 'green' but highly divided and unequal dystopia.
It's true that things can change very quickly under pressure, but we needs to a global reconfiguring of the entire system in the next few decades to avoid the worst, and currently that doesn't look very likely to me...
Last edited:
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Don't disagree with much of this.
The spectre of a net-zero referendum is a depressing and frightening (to put it mildly) one, but entirely plausible.
My own best guess way forward is decarbonisation "from below" - a gradual and growing withdrawal from the death machine and prepping for rebuilding in the ruins.
But that's bleak as fuck and no more likely to succeed than anything else.
Flavour
hang the bankers
indeed, only total destruction of our current global system would work. this attempt at "civilization" is a failure. there may be some things to be salvaged from it but most of it needs to go. most people are too invested in the system to abandon it (myself included) but there is no solution to the climate crisis within this framework. there can be no green capitalism.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Obvious answer ... stop policing JSO and try catching some actual criminals (oh I know that would involve some actual police work lol)
editor
hiraethified
What the fuck are you doing?
teqniq
DisMembered
Talking complete bollox I'd say.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
He is indefatigableMust say I admire plattysages sterling commitment to keep this thread at the top of the new posts list
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
He is asking for a permaban
The “Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, an the more the better” thread hasn’t been the same since he stopped posting…Must say I admire plattysages sterling commitment to keep this thread at the top of the new posts list
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You've just cursed that thread.The “Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, an the more the better” thread hasn’t been the same since he stopped posting…
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Some kind of self-immolation exercise, reckon
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
Of course this is inappropriate because it is ignoring the fact ambulances need oil / lacking solidarity with working class refinery workers / using concrete which emits carbon (delete as most applicable to your personal prejudices)
Elpenor
Dancing as fast as I can
Don’t forget that the overtime the police will get will probably mean they spend more money on petrol!
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Oooohhh, didn't know it was on Netflix, cheers!
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