Jobcentres tricking people off benefits
- Thread starter minxcariad
- Start date
rollinder
Dont walk away in silence
great one
Link to the facebook page pls?
If it's been posted I missed it.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Good work. The Big Society in action. Though maybe not quite how Ian Duncan Smith imagined it. 
will try sort a workaround ASAPmy mate has been threatened with a sanction for not applying for 2 jobs -
one is in an abbatoir (he's a veggie!)
the other starts at 6am , 15 miles away - no buses can get him there for this time. When he said that, Pauline's Pens said "get a taxi"
so on a minimum wage of £220 my mate is expected to get 5 taxis x £15 and pay 5 x £5 return journey on the bus !!
what planet do these Tory cunts live on?
one is in an abbatoir (he's a veggie!)
the other starts at 6am , 15 miles away - no buses can get him there for this time. When he said that, Pauline's Pens said "get a taxi"
so on a minimum wage of £220 my mate is expected to get 5 taxis x £15 and pay 5 x £5 return journey on the bus !!
what planet do these Tory cunts live on?
Good work. The Big Society in action. Though maybe not quite how Ian Duncan Smith imagined it.
Joined! And i posted a link on Show Your Disgust For The Tories group
_angel_
.
I always thought that sort of thing they were allowed to make exceptions for 'moral reasons'. Actually, they probably are meant to, but none of the staff either know or care about it. If he had a religion behind him there would be no chance of them forcing it.
It's not to do with the 'tories' tho is it? All this wold have been happening under the last govt.
yeah, it's not just the tories, it's all of 'em.
this is ace - i feel like stella must've when she did the jan moir thing
slowly sorting pagestuff out and might be going out for a little nom later - should get it all prettied up by this evening though x
this is ace - i feel like stella must've when she did the jan moir thing
slowly sorting pagestuff out and might be going out for a little nom later - should get it all prettied up by this evening though x
Christ i'm tired, been a busy old day, shot a couple of Jews trying to escape, set the dogs on a few gypsies and tortured a few mental health inmates..... Life is tiring as a concentration camp guard.... Oh well, better get on with gassing a few jews and commies..... Bit of luck throw a few cripples in there too......
Right, first of all apologies for that comment. Reading it back it was completely hyperbolic and in very poor taste. I appreciate that there are good people within the system with their hands tied to an extent, and they don't deserve to be labelled in that way. Sorry.
My point without the hyperbole still stands though, I'd like to see these DWP workers stand up to their bosses who try to force them to implement immoral procedures. They'd have our full solidarity and support.
Please work with us and not against us.
Right some more points, still haven't woken up properly yet after a long and much needed sleep so please excuse any incoherence (or if you rip the piss with it just be gentle please).
This seems to have completely taken off already, well done folks, especially tufty79. Tbh I've had a busy weekend planned with other stuff so was originally going to just brainstorm over the weekend with others who had already contacted me, and start trying to organise the practicalities on Monday. But, fuck it why wait eh ?
Which brings me on to my first point. Autonomy and political neutrality. There's a lot of people out there affected by this. Angry people. That anger needs to be harnessed in a positive way. Not all these people will fall within the same sides of the political spectrum. They're angry about their personal circumstances, not with the tories etc. Regardless their anger is still valid and needs to be used in the right way. There are a lot of Jobcentres across the country that need picketing. I personally believe that this group/movement needs to be be as politically neutral as possible to encourage the wide participation that will be needed. Is this even possible ? Thoughts needed peeps...
Would accepting donations towards costs from other political groups cause problems ? I have concerns about hijacking from others with agendas. That's not what this is all about imo.
Maybe it would be best to stick to purely being a resource for people to turn up, be given facts about how they are being screwed over and able to download simple leaflets explaining their rights about sanctions etc and how to deal with them and make valid appeals. Also be a distribution resource for posters and flyers they could use to raise awareness of these targeted sanctions.
There is a universal anger out there towards this and it needs to be as inclusive as possible and harnessed in the right way, regardless of one's personal political beliefs.
Possible legal ramifications? The jobcentres aren't exactly going to be happy about this are they ? Would we need someone legal to look over what we are distributing to avoid libel etc ?
Which brings me on to my next point. Anonymity. What if there were any legal comebacks, or aggro from angry people/security services ? Personally I value my anonymity to an extent and was going to set up new facebook/twitter/urban accounts in order to preserve that, but seems like it's a bit late for that now. I don't even own any ID atm ffs so I don't think being treasurer etc of anything is going to be practical for me.
I see anonymous as a good model for stuff like this. What can be learnt from them and the way they operate ?
DWP staff. Very important that there are no attacks on front line DWP staff. It's important. Yes, I've changed my tone somewhat since yesterday, I know. We need the good ones onside. How can we benefit (excuse the pun) each other ? Solidarity is needed to an extent in both directions.
I've loads more to add to this but have to go out briefly.
More later....
ps. All feedback appreciated. Even if it's just "STFU Drew!!!"
I realise some of this has probably been discussed earlier in the thread but I'm pretty rushed today and haven't read it all in detail.
Back soon.
This seems to have completely taken off already, well done folks, especially tufty79.
Tbh I've had a busy weekend planned with other stuff so was originally going to just brainstorm over the weekend with others who had already contacted me, and start trying to organise the practicalities on Monday. But, fuck it why wait eh ?Which brings me on to my first point. Autonomy and political neutrality. There's a lot of people out there affected by this. Angry people. That anger needs to be harnessed in a positive way. Not all these people will fall within the same sides of the political spectrum. They're angry about their personal circumstances, not with the tories etc. Regardless their anger is still valid and needs to be used in the right way. There are a lot of Jobcentres across the country that need picketing. I personally believe that this group/movement needs to be be as politically neutral as possible to encourage the wide participation that will be needed. Is this even possible ? Thoughts needed peeps...
Would accepting donations towards costs from other political groups cause problems ? I have concerns about hijacking from others with agendas. That's not what this is all about imo.
Maybe it would be best to stick to purely being a resource for people to turn up, be given facts about how they are being screwed over and able to download simple leaflets explaining their rights about sanctions etc and how to deal with them and make valid appeals. Also be a distribution resource for posters and flyers they could use to raise awareness of these targeted sanctions.
There is a universal anger out there towards this and it needs to be as inclusive as possible and harnessed in the right way, regardless of one's personal political beliefs.
Possible legal ramifications? The jobcentres aren't exactly going to be happy about this are they ? Would we need someone legal to look over what we are distributing to avoid libel etc ?
Which brings me on to my next point. Anonymity. What if there were any legal comebacks, or aggro from angry people/security services ? Personally I value my anonymity to an extent and was going to set up new facebook/twitter/urban accounts in order to preserve that, but seems like it's a bit late for that now.
I don't even own any ID atm ffs so I don't think being treasurer etc of anything is going to be practical for me. I see anonymous as a good model for stuff like this. What can be learnt from them and the way they operate ?
DWP staff. Very important that there are no attacks on front line DWP staff. It's important. Yes, I've changed my tone somewhat since yesterday, I know. We need the good ones onside. How can we benefit (excuse the pun) each other ? Solidarity is needed to an extent in both directions.
I've loads more to add to this but have to go out briefly.
More later....
ps. All feedback appreciated. Even if it's just "STFU Drew!!!"
I realise some of this has probably been discussed earlier in the thread but I'm pretty rushed today and haven't read it all in detail.Back soon.
socialist unity on the JC swindlers...
good stuff, from them....
AN OPEN LETTER TO MARK SERWOTKA AND THE PCS
http://socialistunity.com/
good stuff, from them....
AN OPEN LETTER TO MARK SERWOTKA AND THE PCS
http://socialistunity.com/
Totally treelover
Tbh I feel hopelessly naive with a lot of this, and possibly a bit out of my depth. I just feel that unity is needed if this is to have any real effect. If that means working together with people that have completely different political beliefs then so be it. The anger from ALL needs to be harnessed.
Tbh I feel hopelessly naive with a lot of this, and possibly a bit out of my depth. I just feel that unity is needed if this is to have any real effect. If that means working together with people that have completely different political beliefs then so be it. The anger from ALL needs to be harnessed.
Agreed.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I think you're right insofar as "party politics" aren't really germane, what are germane are the personal politics of members vis a vis organising against their marginalisation and arbitrary punishment. Possibly something along the lines of "we're not party-political here, so please leave your Labourism, Lib_demism or Toryism at home" needs to be said to prevent friction.
Talking of arbitrary punishment...
I just heard about a 64-year old bloke, 9 months from getting his pension, being sanctioned because he couldn't prove that he'd applied for a job. According to the person behind the counter, he should send all applications "signed for". Seeing as he sends out at least 10 applications a week, thats 15% of his dole money gone. Person behind the counter then said "come into the job centre and use our facilities, but refused to acknowledge that the cost of going to the job centre was £5-7 a go (£5 petrol, £5 return bus fare, or £7 total bus fare if you got singles both ways).
Always a worry. IMO it needs to be made clear that while donations are welcome, no strings are accepted, and entryism is discouraged. The organisation has a set of purposes, one of the primary purposes being to support people around specific circumstances related to hassle over benefits. By the community for the community.
Probably a good point.
There's also an issue about trespass. As I recall from previous decades, if you protest outside of dole offices/job centres, they usually try to get their security people to move you on, stating that you're on their "land" without permission. I'm fairly sure this only actually applies to the pavement immediately adjacent to their frontage, but I'll try and check that out.
Which brings me on to my next point. Anonymity. What if there were any legal comebacks, or aggro from angry people/security services ? Personally I value my anonymity to an extent and was going to set up new facebook/twitter/urban accounts in order to preserve that, but seems like it's a bit late for that now. I don't even own any ID atm ffs so I don't think being treasurer etc of anything is going to be practical for me.
I see anonymous as a good model for stuff like this. What can be learnt from them and the way they operate ?
DWP staff. Very important that there are no attacks on front line DWP staff. It's important. Yes, I've changed my tone somewhat since yesterday, I know. We need the good ones onside. How can we benefit (excuse the pun) each other ? Solidarity is needed to an extent in both directions.
I've loads more to add to this but have to go out briefly.
More later....
ps. All feedback appreciated. Even if it's just "STFU Drew!!!"
Back soon.
Oi, Drew, STFU!!!
Nah, you've made loads of good points.
'Thank you all for the very interesting comment thread. on monday i will go through it in more detail.
I will just reply now to
@robbo100
Nothing about this on the BBC. If this just remains a one day wonder on The Guardian nothing is going to be done about it.
I personally will continue to push this story, try and get it raised in parliament, try and push the DWP to find out what exactly they do and don't know is going on in offices, try and find more about the ways people are being affected. So as i said before feel free to get in touch with me with any personal experiences.'
the journo who wrote the article, John Demokous want people to get in touch with their stories, etc..
maybe they can do the same for the training agencies which is an even bigger scandal..
I will just reply now to
@robbo100
Nothing about this on the BBC. If this just remains a one day wonder on The Guardian nothing is going to be done about it.
I personally will continue to push this story, try and get it raised in parliament, try and push the DWP to find out what exactly they do and don't know is going on in offices, try and find more about the ways people are being affected. So as i said before feel free to get in touch with me with any personal experiences.'
the journo who wrote the article, John Demokous want people to get in touch with their stories, etc..
maybe they can do the same for the training agencies which is an even bigger scandal..
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Great stuff Drew!
Some random thoughts which connect with your points.
1. Politically it is already pretty neutral. The anti-cuts argument is pure Keynes - a liberal who sought to make capitalism more stable, to save it from itself. And we had greater growth before Thatcher than after. It's a pro-capitalist argument we're making here. This is an early draft rant that I'm asking better heads than mine to look over at the moment, but it explains the anti-cuts argument from an essentially hard-headed capitalist financial point of view.
2. There aren't any political parties articulating this viewpoint (save arguably the Greens). My slogan for this whole thing would be "Democracy is the limits we place on power".
3. I'm exploring affiliation with the NUWU - although not all our activists will be unemployed - and also with the TUC, who should be able to advise us on financial legalities. I don't think there's a problem though - lots of non-charity groups ask for donations. We'll be keeping completely transparent open accounts - with anyone being able to object to proposed expenditures before they happen - and will do whatever we are required to do to stay on the right side of the law.
4. Anonymity should be the position until we have the legal side sorted out, but we're not talking about an in yer face action here. Just a pasting table and stools outside the job centre, leafleting everyone who goes in and signing up as many as possible. There is no law they can move you on with as long as you are not interfering with people's right of way or stopping other's conducting their business. Brian Haw is still there because he can't be moved.
5. We must make sure that those activists running the stall are safe from victimisation, which means ensuring that there are enough people volunteering that they can seek work, making sure they have netbook and dongle to help them seek work even while signing people up, and that everyone has instant access to advice here or elsewhere if problems arise.
Some random thoughts which connect with your points.
1. Politically it is already pretty neutral. The anti-cuts argument is pure Keynes - a liberal who sought to make capitalism more stable, to save it from itself. And we had greater growth before Thatcher than after. It's a pro-capitalist argument we're making here. This is an early draft rant that I'm asking better heads than mine to look over at the moment, but it explains the anti-cuts argument from an essentially hard-headed capitalist financial point of view.
2. There aren't any political parties articulating this viewpoint (save arguably the Greens). My slogan for this whole thing would be "Democracy is the limits we place on power".
3. I'm exploring affiliation with the NUWU - although not all our activists will be unemployed - and also with the TUC, who should be able to advise us on financial legalities. I don't think there's a problem though - lots of non-charity groups ask for donations. We'll be keeping completely transparent open accounts - with anyone being able to object to proposed expenditures before they happen - and will do whatever we are required to do to stay on the right side of the law.
4. Anonymity should be the position until we have the legal side sorted out, but we're not talking about an in yer face action here. Just a pasting table and stools outside the job centre, leafleting everyone who goes in and signing up as many as possible. There is no law they can move you on with as long as you are not interfering with people's right of way or stopping other's conducting their business. Brian Haw is still there because he can't be moved.
5. We must make sure that those activists running the stall are safe from victimisation, which means ensuring that there are enough people volunteering that they can seek work, making sure they have netbook and dongle to help them seek work even while signing people up, and that everyone has instant access to advice here or elsewhere if problems arise.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
And following on from VP:
Yes - activist time is for activism, politics is for the pub.
Completely flat non-hierarchical structure. Decisions get made by those who make and discuss suggestions. Roles shared out as much as possible.
If Drew can't open the bank account, is there someone who can? Volunteers for National Treasurer. Would need to respond to finance requests approved here by general consensus, and stick up regular summaries of incomings and outgoings to keep us all in the loop.
I think we should recruit kabbes.
Yes - activist time is for activism, politics is for the pub.
Completely flat non-hierarchical structure. Decisions get made by those who make and discuss suggestions. Roles shared out as much as possible.
If Drew can't open the bank account, is there someone who can? Volunteers for National Treasurer. Would need to respond to finance requests approved here by general consensus, and stick up regular summaries of incomings and outgoings to keep us all in the loop.
I think we should recruit kabbes.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
And on the expert stuff, Drew. I think we want to ask for volunteers from all walks of life to advise us, and also to help on the careers advisory side. People in work can often see the kinds of jobs that would suit someone out of work, and know how to get trained for them, but when you're out of work, it's hard to know what's out there.
Completely open membership, to anyone who can sign up to the basic principals (self-organisation, solidarity, non-violence?)
Completely open membership, to anyone who can sign up to the basic principals (self-organisation, solidarity, non-violence?)
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's apparently accurate (I checked with a legal bod).
What is meant by "public highway" is, put simply, the pavement. You can be done for protesting/assembling on their forecourt, but not for doing so on the public highway (although you may be done by the OB for obstruction of you cause one). Also, if the JC security guards follow their usual orders, they'll try to move you on despite you being on the public highway. If they manhandle you to move you on while you're on the public highway, this may constitute an act of assault. All they're permitted to do is to request that you move on.
"The right of the public in respect of a highway is limited to the use of it for the purpose of passing and repassing and for such other reasonable purposes as it is usual to use the highway; if a member of the public uses it for any other purpose than that of passing and repassing he will be a trespasser." (my emphasis)
Clerk & Lindsell, The Law of Torts , 17th ed. (1995), para. 17-41.
"Such other reasonable purposes" have historically been such practices as petitioning, soliciting charitable contributions, surveying the public and political lobbying and promotion. I can't see that leafleting and lobbying prospective members falls outside of anything that is currently permissible.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
So, we need to set up 'office' on a wide enough pavement nearby to avoid causing an obstruction.
Longer term, the aim should be for each branch to have a collaboration with one or more local pubs and cafes to provide a catered drop-in space for people to come to. It could be very popular with those who do little day-time trade, and they might well offer a discount on tea for members.
Longer term, the aim should be for each branch to have a collaboration with one or more local pubs and cafes to provide a catered drop-in space for people to come to. It could be very popular with those who do little day-time trade, and they might well offer a discount on tea for members.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
I spent most of one demo explaining to a copper outside Downing Street why I wasn't going to move into the kettle because I wasn't causing an obstruction on the pavement and he was going to have to prove that I was and show me his authority to move me on before I was going anywhere.
We need to make sure everyone can challenge security and police who try to move them on. They must know the law and demand to know the basis of any action. And we need legal types on board to make sure that massive compensation follows illegal attempts to move people on.
We need to make sure everyone can challenge security and police who try to move them on. They must know the law and demand to know the basis of any action. And we need legal types on board to make sure that massive compensation follows illegal attempts to move people on.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Doesn't need to be "massive compensation". A dozen small cases can cause more expense and inconvenience than a single large one.
As I mentioned earlier, personally I would like to confront ATOS.
I can make one small gesture if I am told that I have to be reassessed.
I was going to demand that they come to me, for several reasons. I think I've got a better idea however.
I'll go to them and shit myself and piss all over the interview room floor (I've only got MS after all)
I will take a change of clothes.
I can make one small gesture if I am told that I have to be reassessed.
I was going to demand that they come to me, for several reasons. I think I've got a better idea however.
I'll go to them and shit myself and piss all over the interview room floor (I've only got MS after all)
I will take a change of clothes.
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