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Jobcentres tricking people off benefits

good stuff on this thread :)

the next Day of Action Against Benefit Cuts is on the 14th April - events are already planned in London, Leeds, Bristol, Brighton and Poole

theres also action against atos planned for may - details tomorrow

if anyone organises leafleting sessions, protests, meetings etc on or around the 14th let me know and i can make sure they get promoted on the website/fb page - also if groups want to be listed as supporters let me know (list of supporters below)

details of plans for the 14th: http://benefitclaimantsfightback.wordpress.com/2011/03/30/national-day-of-protest-against-benefit-cuts-day-3/

fb page for the event: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=164277070288955

benefit claimants fightback fb group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=116432071735566

list of supporters

o Anti-Benefit Cuts Glasgow
o Black Triangle Anti-Defamation Campaign
o Brighton Benefits Campaign
o Cardiff’s Unemployed Daytime Disco
o Carer Watch
o Carer Watch fb page
o Crippen – Disabled Cartoonist
o Diary of a Benefit Scrounger
o Disabled People Against Cuts
o Dundee Unemployed Workers
o Edinburgh Coalition Against Poverty
o Free London Listings
o Goldsmiths in Occupation
o Haringey Solidarity Group
o Ipswich Unemployed Action
o Islington Poverty Action
o Kilburn Unemployed Workers Group
o Lancaster and Morecambe Against the Cuts
o London Coalition Against Poverty (LCAP)
o London Foodbank
o Mad Pride
o Medway Against The Cuts
o Mental Health Resistance Network
o Norfolk Community Action Group
o Nottingham Claimants' Union
o Nuneaton Against Benefit Cuts
o Oxford Save Our Services
o Squattastic
o Tyneside Claimants Union
o Welfare Action Hackney
o Welfare Rights 4 u (UK)
o Work Programme & Flexible New Deal Scandal
o World Homeless Day
 
OK - we need ALL of them on board!

Can you get the word out, smokedout?
 
yardbird said:
As I mentioned earlier, personally I would like to confront ATOS.
I can make one small gesture if I am told that I have to be reassessed.
I was going to demand that they come to me, for several reasons. I think I've got a better idea however.
I'll go to them and shit myself and piss all over the interview room floor (I've only got MS after all)
I will take a change of clothes.
:D
Click to expand...

I contacted ATOS upteem times and I've finally been granted a home visit after demanding to speak to a local manager, who to be fair was pretty reasonable and was dismayed with the level of bureaucracy he had to deal with for such a request as mine.
 
We have the facebook page, and we have this thread (which anyone can read without registering). What we need for the long term is up for discussion.
 
:cool:

Still trying to work out this facebook stuff, but that looks ace! :)
 
This is an excellent idea, very impressive to see the work of all involved. I was wondering with regards to training volunteer advisors though whether it would it be possible to 'obtain' a copy of some of the material JC+ use to train their staff with. Not only would it be handy to have the procedural/legal information etc., but you'd get an insight into how staff are being taught to react to situations and a clear idea of what steps they'll take in particular cases- could give something of a 'tactical advantage' in disputes?
 
Garek said:
Yep :( Been sanctioned for failing to properly write out forms despite repeated attempts to inform them of dyslexia. I wrote down all my job searches and stuff I had done on the computer. I put down all the information that the form was asking. I printed it off and was told it was unacceptable. It didn't matter I had answered all the questions. The answers had to be written on the form I was given. They said if I really had dyslexia I should be give them a lter proving it. I am not sure people realise how hard it is to go through all that (getting the lett I mean).

They are fucking cunts that bastards at the JC. Nearly every time I have been there there have been a core group standing aroung just chatting and gossiping whilst people sit there for hours waiting there turn. The JC is an excercise in removing all human dignity. Cunts.
Click to expand...

B#stards.
 
creak said:
This is an excellent idea, very impressive to see the work of all involved. I was wondering with regards to training volunteer advisors though whether it would it be possible to 'obtain' a copy of some of the material JC+ use to train their staff with. Not only would it be handy to have the procedural/legal information etc., but you'd get an insight into how staff are being taught to react to situations and a clear idea of what steps they'll take in particular cases- could give something of a 'tactical advantage' in disputes?
Click to expand...

Whilst obtaining such material may well have its uses, I would be cautious of treating it as an accurate statement of the law (if it were, I'd be unlikely to succeed as often as I do when representing claimants at tribunals).

I'm happy to contribute with legal advice (and possibly even tribunal representation in London) but I'm not certain that pursuing appeals, no matter how successfully, is necessarily the way to go in terms of changing policy. You can win any number of appeals (and I do) but by that time the damage is done - an appeal on a sanction may well take 3-6 months to get heard by a tribunal. Even where you do win, it's not like there's any huge come back (not sure there's any) in the JC+ office involved.

Other types of legal challenge (county court claims, judicial reviews) may stand more chance of success in terms of attacking policy - but they will be much harder to bring and require a paper trail that may not exist/be obtainable.

will need to think some more on this.....
 
Sorry folks, been really busy with other things the last few days. Have just returned from the Jobcentre after having to sort out my claim for umpteenth time. Finally, after a year of trying to persuade them to use some common sense, they are now letting me sign on at my local Jobcentre (10min walk) rather than the one that is 5 miles and two bus journeys away :)

I also had a VERY interesting chat with an employee there which could be extremely useful indeed !!! :cool: I told her the horror stories about my repeated sanctions and appeals at the previous Jobcentre I was with, and without any prompting from me she came out with... "I couldn't possibly tell you about stage 3 staff being given quotas and targets for sanctioning people" whilst giving me a nudge and a wink. ;)

Despite my previous comments, I do really feel for the staff that are trying their best to help people and do the right thing.

This is why it is critical that there are NO personal attacks on front line workers.

Lots of good ideas coming together on this thread. Good work from all so far. :cool:

Again, I think it's vitally important that we keep as politically neutral as possible with this. Is linking the name of this facebook group with the "Big Society" really doing that ? No offence, but going just by the name of the group "Big Society Benefits & Careers Advisory Service & NUWU recruitment drive" doesn't really convey much info about what this is all about. Could something be integrated into it about the "targeted sanctions" ? Something that could immediately grab the attention of the people that are being hit with this. I've had someone contact me who has joined the group but doesn't seem to understand entirely what this is all about, what can be done, or what they need to do.

Unfortunately I haven't got as much free time as I thought I'd have to devote towards this atm as I'm starting a voluntary job placement this week. I'd still like to be able to help with stuff as much as possible though.
 
More admins etc needed.. More than happy to change the name here (any suggestions?), was thinking earlier about the political neutrality side of things. And the aims. And all of it... Internet on laptop keeps wonking out and it's not too easy to do stuff on me phone... But yup, we do need to get clearer/less fuzzy, emphasise nvda and mutual support/education, and sharpen it up a bit :oops:
 
tufty79 said:
More admins etc needed.. More than happy to change the name here (any suggestions?), was thinking earlier about the political neutrality side of things. And the aims. And all of it... Internet on laptop keeps wonking out and it's not too easy to do stuff on me phone... But yup, we do need to get clearer/less fuzzy, emphasise nvda and mutual support/education, and sharpen it up a bit :oops:
Click to expand...

Nice one tufty79 you've done superb so far btw, your enthusiasm is plain to see. :cool:

I just think it's best to keep it as "straight to the point" as possible if it's to be taken seriously.

Btw is anyone in contact with the journo who originally wrote that Guardian article ?
 
from what I read earlier the name needs changing before the group gets to many members
Time to start brainstorming
eta:
http://www.facebook.com/help/?faq=15196
bloody complicated facebook said:
How do I change my Page name?
If an error was made in your Page name when it was created, you have the option to edit the Page name to correct this issue. This option is only limited to Pages with less than 100 connections. After selecting to edit your Page, you can adjust this information from the "Basic Information" section.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah. Good points all Drew.

I suppose the Big Society branding idea was because it's instantly recognisable from UK Uncut's Big Society Revenue and Customs. Sarcastic and sincere all at the same time - but that doesn't mean it strikes everyone like that.

I just properly got your point on anonymity and the risk of retaliation by staff in the JCs. I think a large part of it should be trying to engage with staff in the JCs and getting them to volunteer their time as advisors outside of the office - bridging some gaps and protecting those most vulnerable to target-seeking employees, and perhaps empowering them to rebel if they're inclined to obey.

I was going to ask if cross-picketing local JCs, to lessen the risk of victimisation, might be feasible. But the transport costs might be a bit of an issue. I was thinking that people could combine signing on with helping out with recruitment and advice outside. But it's years since I had to deal with DWP, so I'm not in a good position to develop a strategy on that score.
 
rollinder said:
from what I read earlier the name needs changing before the group gets to many members
Time to start brainstorming
eta:
http://www.facebook.com/help/?faq=15196
Click to expand...
agh. failfailfail on my behalf. we are on our original name still.
also thinking of posting this if it's ok?

we would like to assert that we are a non-political 'organisation', in so far as we are not affiliated with any political party, political category, or anyone else's agenda.

we would also like to take the opportunity to state that we believe in non violent direct action (where any action may be deemed necessary), and that we do not wish to threaten, intimidate or harm any individual or group.
Click to expand...
 
RaverDrew said:
How about... "Action Against Targeted JSA Sanctions"

Seems simple enough and to the point. Would be even better if we could think of one that has a catchy acronym. :hmm:
Click to expand...

That seems very restricted in scope to me.

I'm not sure what 'politics' we're worried about here. Unionisation, decent wages, the welfare state were all introduced to save capitalism from itself. They're fundamentally pro-capitalist policies.

One of the causes of the 1929 crash was identified as workers not being able to buy what they made. Collective bargaining and welfare were about ensuring that wages could not fall below a given level, because allowing employers to exercise the kind of power that has people working long hours for pennies in developing countries makes it impossible to sustain a thriving internal economy.

You either sell to your own workers - which means paying them enough - or you sell to rich consumers elsewhere. If you sell to rich consumers elsewhere, you need low wages and terrible, terrible, living conditions for the majority of the population. And eventually the rich consumers will be so heavily in debt that they aren't rich consumers any more and the developing country has to start using its surplus to develop its own internal market, which is exactly what is happening right now.

The politics here is fundamentally middle of the road. Keynes was not a revolutionary!
 
i worry about being labelled specifically as a tory-hating group (although i don't like the fuckers, i don't want this whole thing to boil down to that, or be able to be perceived as doing so)... i'm knackered, but will write some more tomorrow if that's alright.
sleep good y'all, and thank you all for being all inspiring and clever and, well, awesome. x
 
I don't disagree with that - but then, the One Nation Tories hate this sort of stuff too and New Labour started this shit in the first place - so it's hard to see how it's party political, unless all the information we give out tries to pretend that it's just this government, which would be ludicrous.

It is worth noting, again, that UK Uncut - which used the Big Society Revenue & Customs label - has had a lot of support from those sections of the Tory press that cater to middle England and not just the top 1%. And it was Labour that cut staff at HMRC by a third, so they're hardly banging the drum for them!

I don't think the anti-cuts protest movement has any strong political ties. Most people are fed up with the lot of them AFAICT. Party politics is completely irrelevant for this initiative. Labour aren't offering anything better at all for the economically disenfranchised, and this shit started with them.
 
ymu said:
Yeah. Good points all Drew.

I suppose the Big Society branding idea was because it's instantly recognisable from UK Uncut's Big Society Revenue and Customs. Sarcastic and sincere all at the same time - but that doesn't mean it strikes everyone like that.

I just properly got your point on anonymity and the risk of retaliation by staff in the JCs. I think a large part of it should be trying to engage with staff in the JCs and getting them to volunteer their time as advisors outside of the office - bridging some gaps and protecting those most vulnerable to target-seeking employees, and perhaps empowering them to rebel if they're inclined to obey.

I was going to ask if cross-picketing local JCs, to lessen the risk of victimisation, might be feasible. But the transport costs might be a bit of an issue. I was thinking that people could combine signing on with helping out with recruitment and advice outside. But it's years since I had to deal with DWP, so I'm not in a good position to develop a strategy on that score.
Click to expand...

Totally, I imagine it could be a very bad idea to do anything to upset the staff at your local jobcentre. :hmm: I speak from bitter experience that thankfully looks like has been resolved for me after today, touch wood. Anonymity is a major issue imo and this could (and possibly has already) attract a lot of unwanted attention. There's not much that can be done about that apart from trying to protect yourselves as much as possible.

ymu said:
That seems very restricted in scope to me.

I'm not sure what 'politics' we're worried about here. Unionisation, decent wages, the welfare state were all introduced to save capitalism from itself. They're fundamentally pro-capitalist policies.

One of the causes of the 1929 crash was identified as workers not being able to buy what they made. Collective bargaining and welfare were about ensuring that wages could not fall below a given level, because allowing employers to exercise the kind of power that has people working long hours for pennies in developing countries makes it impossible to sustain a thriving internal economy.

You either sell to your own workers - which means paying them enough - or you sell to rich consumers elsewhere. If you sell to rich consumers elsewhere, you need low wages and terrible, terrible, living conditions for the majority of the population. And eventually the rich consumers will be so heavily in debt that they aren't rich consumers any more and the developing country has to start using its surplus to develop its own internal market, which is exactly what is happening right now.

The politics here is fundamentally middle of the road. Keynes was not a revolutionary!
Click to expand...

To me there seems to be plenty of other groups out there already that cater more towards that side of things, although there are certainly some great ideas mentioned here and elsewhere that should be integrated in some way.

I feel that there's a single issue here from the initial article that needs to be targeted, just as they are targeting the claimants.

Sanctions - Personally I'd like to raise awareness on how to avoid them, let people know their rights, and where to seek help if they need to appeal. If there is any direct action that can be orchestrated it needs to involve as many who are affected as possible, with simple and politically neutral (as much as it can be) aims and methods, whilst also being peaceful and lawful. It needs to be something that is easy for people to follow and implement themselves, based on clear guidelines on how to make a difference, and how to raise awareness and help fellow claimants without falling foul of the law. This affects claimants from every jobcentre across the country. We're all in it together. ;)

I'm going to try and contact a very trusted criminal lawyer tomorrow to maybe help give us an outline of what can and can't be done legally.

I've also had a couple of pm's from people offering help in certain ways, I'll be in contact as soon as I can, please bear with me.

Like I said already, I maybe feel a bit naive and out of my depth with some of this, and am very short of free time to devote towards matters this week. Regardless, things need to get moving asap.

Is there anyone with experience of working on similar action who can help kick-start this project ? Especially with helping to organise the practicalities ?

A couple of things off the top of my head that would be very useful for people to volunteer atm would be...

  • A list or database of every Citizens Advice Bureau (or similar) across the country.
  • Someone with web design/wordpress skills (plus the spare time obviously) to knock up together something basic to get us started.
 
I think it's critical that whatever happens, this is steered by people at the sharp end. I'm not, so it ain't up to me. But I'll give you all the support I can to help make things happen.

Are you reluctant to work with the NUWU because it's too 'political', because otherwise that seems like the obvious place to start. I don't know how far they've got since this. There doesn't seem to be much of a national web presence bar the facebook group but this is from the Cambs UWU (still trawling for more). Looks a lot more political than you'd want! And I can't say it looks that useful ...

I agree completely about the single-issue, save the political debate for the pub, approach - every single-issue group needs to work on that principle - but I'm not clear what you're regarding as 'politics' here.
 
In principle I'm not really against being tied in with, affiliated, or linked with any other groups.

But like you mention, I'd like this to be something for those that are on the raw end of this. The people who have already been or are potentially directly affected by sanctions. They are the ones who are angry, and without wanting to stereotype claimants, the ones that have most free time and motivation to put in the hours outside and around the Jobcentres.

I'd like to see this as merely a resource that's kept simple and made as easy as possible for people to do there bit.

So how about this for a start ?

Contact the journalist who originally broke the story, to find out the facts, and clarify exactly what we need to raise awareness about.

Collate any other information we may find out from other sources that may be useful.

Build a simple website explaining what has happened, what people need to be aware of, how to avoid the sanctions, their rights, and how and where to seek help with appeals.

Produce a simple black and white PDF flyer made available online for people to download and have printed. This will be for anyone to distribute to claimants at jobcentres or "Work Programme" contractors (a4e ingeus etc.)

This flyer should contain a basic outline and warning about the targeted sanctions, a link to the website, facebook group, twitter etc. how to find out more information, what specifically can be done, and how you can contribute.

Links to resources in helping people to get the flyers printed.

Give clear guidelines to people about their legal rights in distributing these leaflets and how to avoid falling foul of the law while raising awareness. This should also contain a warning not to attack the jobcentre or it's staff directly.

Amongst the information on the site, have a page linking to other similar groups that you may be interested in, or who may be able to help with related matters. ie. ESA and Atos issues etc
 
That sounds perfect!

Have had some feedback from people saying that they don't do facebook (and I've sent plenty of similar messages in the past!), so a wordpress blog would probably be the best focus of materials and discussion, with facebook and twitter being used to direct people to it. It puts people off if they have to register to do participate.

Each local group could, and should, work out what they're going to do. Any 'national' organisation should be restricted to some basic principles (non-violence, respect for DWP workers etc), facilitating communication, and fund-raising to help with printing and other costs.
 
aagh. and another thing.... i've just rung my back to work advisor at ingeus (used to be pathways to work; did work focussed interviews for the first six months of me esa claim, and they provide support for people on health benefits) to ask about taking advantage of their work psych, their pilates class, and for advice about working out how to get back to work. apparently the service is no longer open for new appointments... and i now have to ask the job centre for any advice. no idea if any of the other stuff's going to be in place with the jc.. i'm at some kind of raw end which is a similar flavour to the sanctions but a different beast... and so are thousands of others.
 
ATOS nurse speaks out.

“I worked for Atos as a ‘disability analyst’ thinking I would be helping vulnerable people to access their benefits,” she said.

“I soon discovered that nothing could be further from the truth. The rules laid down by the bosses are designed to catch people out.”

Jean says that anyone deemed capable of looking after themselves or a child, however difficult they find it, is judged to be capable of work and taken off benefits.

“If you turn up to your claimant interview in nice clothes, you’ve failed,” she says.

“If you turn up washed and with your hair neat, you’ve failed.

“And, if you turn up with your kids, you’ve failed.”

She described the way that claimants with serious lung *diseases were regularly assessed as capable of work because they could sit in front of a computer and type.

“We’re not supposed to ask about how they would get to a workplace, or whether they have special medical equipment that would make daily travel difficult.”

Bosses are so keen to process claimants quickly that staff are given just 45 minutes to assess people and write up a report about them, says Jean.
Click to expand...
 
ymu said:
That sounds perfect!

Have had some feedback from people saying that they don't do facebook (and I've sent plenty of similar messages in the past!), so a wordpress blog would probably be the best focus of materials and discussion, with facebook and twitter being used to direct people to it. It puts people off if they have to register to do participate.

Each local group could, and should, work out what they're going to do. Any 'national' organisation should be restricted to some basic principles (non-violence, respect for DWP workers etc), facilitating communication, and fund-raising to help with printing and other costs.
Click to expand...

Seems a good direction to take. :cool:

treelover said:
'http://unlawfulsanctions.org.uk/'

is this something similar to what you are planning?

good stuff anyway
Click to expand...

I tried looking at that site the other day but the pages wouldn't load. It seems to be working again now, so will have a good bedtime read in a mo. :D There seems to be a LOT of useful information on there. Will need to contact them asap.

Paulie Tandoori said:
Citizens Advice Scroll to the bottom of the page and you enter your post code and loads of local CABx are listed.
Click to expand...

Excellent Paulie thank you very much. :)

I'm wondering if there is anyway to collate and print a list of them all for those with no net access or money to use an internet cafe/phone ?

Just an update: I've had no joy contacting the lawyer I wanted to speak to (it's been a good couple of years since she gave me her business card) so may try chasing a different one. Does anyone have any recommendations ? Preferably one who specialises in dealing with benefits in some way, and may be sympathetic to the cause.

We really need to get the wording of the flyer and legal advice sorted asap, so we can crack on with this.

There have been a few offers of general advice, help, and web/design/coding skills. Thank you massively again peeps. :cool:
 
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