not-bono-ever
meh
there is a perspective out there that isnt towing some party line you know
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
But that ain't it.
I think I'd like to hear what other people say.
Grump
Well-Known Member
You must have laboured hard and long to come up with such a cutting riposte.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
when they tell you, what do you think?
I'm going to revoke your licence in minute unless you get interesting.
Grump
Well-Known Member
If it helps I believe 616.89 is where you will find information about your problems...
I don't know what to think, I'm undecided. I don't know enough about what went on in those meetings. Is there a problem with asking what other people think now?
Supine
Newt Member
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh you indicated the high level of your intellect by calling me a Corbyn fanboy just after I'd said he's less progressive than that well-known lefty Wilson. I've not said anything on this thread to give anyone the impression I'm a fanboy. You're quite happy to make allegations you can't support. The conjunction doesn't make you look an Einstein.
I didn't realise this was a popularity contest. I asked a simple question. Why does it have to be seen as some kind of threat? I genuinely do not know whether him meeting these people can or can't lead to something positive. That's all I'm trying to ascertain. It's not a trick question ffs
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
rather telling you think people who say you're below average are mentally ill
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
.
Grump
Well-Known Member
No, that's not why I said it, it is more a summation of the posts of yours I have read and basing an opinion on 30 years of working in a related field...
not-bono-ever
meh
i dont know what it is tbh. muddled madness
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Lol. If you've read my posts then you wouldn't have made the elementary error of calling me a Corbyn fanboy. I am not sure your professional opinion has the value you believe it does.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
He’s calling you an inflammed cunt actually.
Out of date textbook though (ICD-9)
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh. Well I wouldn't take the word of someone who says with one breath jc's happy to spout racism and with the next bit he's reined it in. Someone like that might strike you, as he does me, as a bullshitter
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
The Phil Evans cartoons were good.
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Then start asking yourself not about the content of those meetings, but about the fact of them.
Everyone makes mistakes, everyone grasps the wrong end of the stick occasionally - young people often join social groups that sound great, but when they meet them in the pub the groups turn out to be shit - but Corbyn seems to be remarkably unlucky with the number of entirely innocent sounding groups that he talks to/gets involved with that turn out to be nests of virulent anti-Semitics, Holocaust deniers, conspiraloons and Assad/Putin fan clubs.
He's either willfully - and repeatedly - blind, magnificently gullible, or enjoys dabbling in that sewer but is too personally nice to use the kind of words others involved might use, but kind of thinks along similar lines.
Personally, despite loathing him, I doubt that he's a out and out antisemite - I think he's just blind to it going on around him when those espousing it are his political fellow travellers, gullible in falling for any old shit that panders to his prejudices, and his spectacular ego tells him that his moral compass is set so purely that anyone who shares similar views must also be a paragon of absolute virtue.
It would not however take much to persuade that he's not just a gullible old fool, but a nasty piece of work...
not-bono-ever
meh
unlikey to be an anti semite but some of his politics are trapped in the taught orthodoxy of past times and maybe should have died with Che it could be said. he probabaly sleeps as well as May these days.
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Ok, I appreciate a more forthcoming response, I'm just struggling to see the depth of what you are seeing in all honesty. I'm not making excuses for the guy. I'm just trying to be honest. You mention anti semitics, holocaust deniers etc. Clearly associating with such people is a problem. No question. But you make it sound as if he's meeting group after group of such people - and maybe he is, I'm only aware of meeting with Hamas/Hazbollah and the IRA. Now I'm not defending those groups, thoug I don't profess to be an expert on them by any means, however Hamas are the elected government so any effort toward peace must surely involve them, no? This is why i asked the question: is he genuoinely trying to effect peace in the region to one degree or another, especially given that he wasn't PM and just a backbencher.
Isn't this just the sort of grubby shit that comes with politics? After all we got the Good Friday agreement talking to the IRA.
Momentum are asking people to challenge the cranks. People already do but they're often attacked for it and this should help.
They've also been very critical of people like Willsman and Shawcroft. It will help if Willsman has lost his seat on the NEC. Results tomorrow.
I think you're right that there is nothing Corbyn can do to stop it. He's there because Miliband couldn't stand up to it. His job is to take the heat while the Labour left consolidate power. It's not going to stop. Jeremy Gilbert wrote a really good analysis for Open Democracy about why antisemitism is the weapon of choice and how to deal with it politically.
"The role of critical intellectuals is not to denounce anti-capitalism because it structurally resembles antisemitism. It is to differentiate the one from the other and to help others to make the same differentiation. Our task is to unmask the fact that the fundamental purpose of antisemitism is always to cover up the truth of power relations, driving wedges between Jewish and non-Jewish communities who should be united in the assertion of their common collective interests.
In the end what this comes down to is a rather banal and predictable observation: but one that radicals will need to keep making no doubt for many years to come. It is that the best cure for antisemitism is not just re-education or disciplinary hearings. It is the positive raising of class consciousness. The more people are enabled to understand the extent to which disparities of wealth and power are what really shape political and social outcomes in the world, the more they are enabled to realise the extent to which they share material interests with millions of others around the world - irrespective of ethnicity or religion - the less susceptible they will be to antisemitism, conspiracy theory, or racism of any kind. This is the response that centrist liberalism cannot make, which is why its response to antisemitism can never be adequate to its task."
In the end what this comes down to is a rather banal and predictable observation: but one that radicals will need to keep making no doubt for many years to come. It is that the best cure for antisemitism is not just re-education or disciplinary hearings. It is the positive raising of class consciousness. The more people are enabled to understand the extent to which disparities of wealth and power are what really shape political and social outcomes in the world, the more they are enabled to realise the extent to which they share material interests with millions of others around the world - irrespective of ethnicity or religion - the less susceptible they will be to antisemitism, conspiracy theory, or racism of any kind. This is the response that centrist liberalism cannot make, which is why its response to antisemitism can never be adequate to its task."
cantsin
Well-Known Member
v good to see Chelley Ryan etc standing up to the cranks...personally, voted for Willsman, but won't be too upset if he loses, and the level of f*ckwittery from his more ardent supporters since ( " LANSMANS A ZIO, W'E'RE LEAVING MOMENTUM" ) leaves me not sure i ( + we ) did the right thing anyway
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
You need to widen out from Corbyn's individual gaffes and blunders. There is a wider milieu that he and his team have been very poor at addressing. And responses from his supporters suggesting that there is no problem to address, that it's all smear with no substance, only exacerbate the perception that Labour is at best tone deaf on the issue.
A few months ago, Richard Seymour wrote a good piece in Jacobin. It's been somewhat overtaken by events: there has since been a summer's worth of clusterfuck from the Corbyn leadership combined with the anti-semitic mire bubbling to the surface. But a number of Seymour's observations still stand.
"Unfortunately, the way in which allegations of antisemitism have been used for party-political purposes, has tended to obscure the need to address it."
"However, this can’t be used to avoid a real problem."
I'm glad to see from xarmian's link above that "Momentum, as well as individuals with large followings, have in recent weeks mobilised the Left to combat anti-Jewish tropes and propaganda on the internet." For too long these tropes and anti-semitic social media accounts have been tolerated and shared. I've seen it myself - otherwise sensible people retweeting anti-semites uncritically, presumably not realising what they're doing. One of the reasons I abandoned twitter is that it's festooned with this filth, and many people just don't seem to be able to distinguish. So any push to challenge that is to be welcomed. But Labour needs to be louder and more sure-footed on this.
An example I've returned to several times is Jim Sheridan. Yes, he's suspended. But surely the "investigation" into his Facebook post doesn't take more than three weeks.
In the Labour Party Rulebook, Chapter 2, it states:
"8. No member of the Party shall engage in conduct which in the opinion of the NEC is prejudicial, or in any act which in the opinion of the NEC is grossly detrimental to the Party. The NEC shall take account of any codes of conduct currently in force and shall regard any incident which in their view might reasonably be seen to demonstrate hostility or prejudice based on age; disability; gender reassignment or identity; marriage and civil partnership; pregnancy and maternity; race; religion or belief; sex; or sexual orientation as conduct prejudicial to the Party: these shall include but not be limited to incidents involving racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia or otherwise racist language, sentiments, stereotypes or actions, sexual harassment, bullying or any form of intimidation towards another person on the basis of a protected characteristic as determined by the NEC, wherever it occurs, as conduct prejudicial to the Party."
He should already be out. His feet should not have touched the floor in the process.
he was on the politics theory other podcast a few weeks ago, covering a lot of the same ground but bringing it up to date - defo worth a listen.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i am surprised you do not question the peculiar silence of the nec, whose opinion in this matter appears central. maybe they could let their opinion be known: this might - depending on the opinion - deter other people. their silence may of course suggest they hold a different view on the behaviour.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
I do.
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