Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[butchersapron]

The alternative would have been to ignore an invitation from a Left Wing Jewish group in his own constituency because it might be seen as an endorsement to conspiracist anti-Semites. Is that much better? Granted, it would have denied the opportunity to have some digs to portions of the press and party but as a functional aspect of the work against anti-Semitism in the party it would have been a pretty dismal turn.

My view is that the process of dealing with the AS portion of the party is going to be a real and long term one which will predominantly be dictated by the culture members themselves choose to create. Having a disciplinary model in place is good but everyone on the Left has met those sort of people and how we react to them is what makes the real difference to how accepted they feel. Bemoaning the leader for creating bad 'optics' as he goes around visiting fairly innocuous functions is just playing to a group of talking heads who, for the most part, don't give a fuck about the issue either way unless it serves them (especially Guido).

Yes, i think that alternative would have been much better in terms of clearing out the second group i mentioned - at this particular point in time anyway - and i think the reasons behind that, behind an immediate priority, could very easily have been communicated to the jewdas group.

 

[8ball]

That's one way of putting it. I read their statement as saying a genuine problem was being used to smear Corbyn unduly. They've not said there was never a problem, quite the opposite.

I notice that the term "anti-Semitic" seems to be totally conflated with criticism of Israel in the popular media. Also that the word "extreme" is now linked to both. To be a "mainstream jew" is to be uncritical of Israel.

Just one small step to go before being critical of Israel is an extremist act.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The establishment dislikes progressive religious groups in general. Religious folk of all stripes are supposed to exist in homogeneous voting blocs with predictable responses to known triggers and tame figureheads who can be bought simply and cheaply.

The press also dislike any situation where they have to think beyond their one-line summaries of what it is to be a muslim or a jew or a sikh. More than one jewish view on Palestine is just too much like hard work, there's clearly some deviancy there that needs stamping out.

Indeed. I share Jewdas and the JSG's utter contempt for appalling, reactionary groups like the BoD and JLC. It disgusts me that these racist, pro-apartheid, pro-war crimes organisations are regarded by anybody as the spokespersons for jews rather that what really are: blind cheerleaders of a colonial settler state.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I notice that the term "anti-Semitic" seems to be totally conflated with criticism of Israel in the popular media.

This is deliberate of course. And it's why Jewish groups who oppose Israeli policies are so roughly treated by the media; a bunch of 'anti-jewish' jews makes the whole narrative look a lot like total bollocks.

Look at how that Jewdas statement has been mangled in the retelling by the BBC et al this morning. To say nothing of the decision to draw attention to who was or wasn't present in a personal capacity at a religious observance. Boris Johnson could've spent last night sitting bollock naked in Trafalgar Square eating a baby panda's face and still Corbyn quietly doing something reasonable would be the latest national scandal.

Remember SCL? Those crypto-fascist psyops people Gove and Johnson and half the tory establishment are in bed with in some form or other? No, me neither.

 

[cantsin]

Who the fuck is advising this guy?

no one with any real impact, it seems, feels like he's relying on his internal compass for navigation - and when that lead him to spend 4hrs ( reportedly) in prayer/ritual with what appear to be brave, compassionate, left wing jews in his own constituency, it was a stronger act than a 1000 cynical, braying,washed up shitehawks like Angela Smith / John Woodcock etc RTing fucking Guido.

JC has ( I suspect completely inadvertently, just his usual ' I said i was going/I'm going ' approach ) muddied the narrative here, shown how ridiculous it is to be treating the Board of Deps / JLM / anyone else as sole voices for such a diverse community - people like Dave Baddiel ( no Corbynite ) are resolutely supporting him here - the intrinsic strength of Corbyn's core principles shining through ( going to stop now before i burst into a Cyndi Lauper song) .

 

[SpookyFrank]

BBC news reports getting worse. They've got some talking head on the radio repeating the line about Jewdas not giving a shit about antisemitism in Labour. Not even a pretence at balance.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Everything I guess. The last few years have been regularly punctuated by people sagely opining 'he's fucked it this time! He needs to play the game better!', and each time they've been proved wrong.

Fuck knows if that's the case this time, but I can't help feeling a certain amount of admiration at the audacity of it all.

Audacity is one word for it, arrogance or incompetence are also possibly applicable.

He's always struck me as someone a) who lacks the capacity to think stuff through and just wings it and b) can't be bothered doing the detail. The Jewdas visit doesn't feel audacious, it feels stupid and pointlessly provocative. BA is spot on with both how this could have been handled and the wider signals it sends.

 

[SpookyFrank]

no one with any real impact, it seems, feels like he's relying on his internal compass for navigation - and when that lead him to spend 4hrs ( reportedly) in prayer/ritual with what appear to be brave, compassionate, left wing jews in his own constituency, it was a stronger act than a 1000 cynical, braying,washed up shitehawks like Angela Smith / John Woodcock etc RTing fucking Guido.

JC has ( I suspect completely inadvertently, just his usual ' I said i was going/I'm going ' approach ) muddied the narrative here, shown how ridiculous it is to be treating the Board of Deps / JLM / anyone else as sole voices for such a diverse community - people like Dave Baddiel ( no Corbynite ) are resolutely supporting him here - Corbyn's core principles shining through ( going to stop now before i burst into a Cyndi Lauper song) .

If he does what he personally thinks is right he can easily and honestly deflect any criticism of it. This is not how politicians are supposed to behave and it really boils a lot of people's piss. How is the establishment supposed to control a man with actual integrity? He must be destroyed.

 

[cantsin]

I think there's going to be two sets of people delighted at this latest - 1) the right inside and out of labour who are using the issue to attack Corbyn and, more importantly to me me 2) anti-semites who think they're just anti-zinonist inside and around the labour left/leadership/Corbyn support groups. Their anti-semitic worldview will be be emboldened by what they will see and a nod-and-a- wink from Corbyn and they will have two of their main dishonesties focused on and bolstered - look even jews think like me, how can i then be anti-semitic and see this was always about Israel not jews (look at the the powerful jews disagreeing and attacking). I don't really care about 1) and don't imagine it having any wider damaging outcomes in its own terms but in recent days there had been signs of the acceptance of the need to isolate then remove the 2nd lot whilst undermining those sort of arguments above. I think giving them a boost of any sort - no matter how innocuous the actual thing he did was - is just bad tactics if you're serious about 2).

you'd have to be some weird new configuration of 'anti semite' if a hugely popular, grassroots supported (and mainstream reviled ) Labour leader sat praying with devout, left wing jews on passover somehow felt "emboldening" to you ??

 

[Mr Moose]

If he does what he personally thinks is right he can easily and honestly deflect any criticism of it. This is not how politicians are supposed to behave and it really boils a lot of people's piss. How is the establishment supposed to control a man with actual integrity? He must be destroyed.

True, but he needs to continue to demonstrate integrity rather than just have it heaped on him. He’s been given way too much rope about his previous associations and it may yet damage Labour’s chances of making a difference. Many have assumed JC simply cannot be anti-Semitic, but the truth is he has sailed close to the wind.

 

[bimble]

you'd have to be some weird new configuration of 'anti semite' if a hugely popular, grassroots supported (and mainstream reviled ) Labour leader sat praying with devout, left wing jews on passover somehow felt "emboldening" to you ??

Do you not understand BA’s post ? - or if you understand but disagree can you explain how?
(There wont have been ‘praying’ , but that’s irrelevant)

 

[killer b]

Audacity is one word for it, arrogance or incompetence are also possibly applicable.

He's always struck me as someone a) who lacks the capacity to think stuff through and just wings it and b) can't be bothered doing the detail. The Jewdas visit doesn't feel audacious, it feels stupid and pointlessly provocative. BA is spot on with both how this could have been handled and the wider signals it sends.

Arrogance and incompetence are how many of corbyn's political moves and strategies have been dismissed. And yet, here we are, after three years of virulent internal and external attacks, with him having achieved full spectrum dominance of the Labour party, and within sniffing distance of downing street. I don't think it's credible to suggest that Corbyn is incompetent anymore, and if he's arrogant I don't think it's totally without basis.

 

[cantsin]

Do you not understand BA’s post ? - or if you understand but disagree can you explain how?
(There wont have been ‘praying’ , but that’s irrelevant)

ok, so he took part in a 'blessing'/ ritual rather than prayer then ?
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[bimble]

Not sure how to engage with that but yeah ritual much closer than prayer.
Ba’s post above: do you disagree or just don’t get what he was saying?

 

[agricola]

Arrogance and incompetence are how many of corbyn's political moves and strategies have been dismissed. And yet, here we are, after three years of virulent internal and external attacks, with him having achieved full spectrum dominance of the Labour party, and within sniffing distance of downing street. I don't think it's credible to suggest that Corbyn is incompetent anymore, and if he's arrogant I don't think it's totally without basis.

TBF the question of his competence hasn't really been answered; all we have found out over the past three years is that his internal critics are incompetent.

 

[cantsin]

Do you not understand BA’s post ? - or if you understand but disagree can you explain how?
(There wont have been ‘praying’ , but that’s irrelevant)

(responding in 2 parts here )

Butchers :
"anti-semites who think they're just anti-zinonist inside and around the labour left/leadership/Corbyn support groups. Their anti-semitic worldview will be be emboldened by what they will see and a nod-and-a- wink from Corbyn and they will have two of their main dishonesties focused on and bolstered - look even jews think like me, how can i then be anti-semitic and see this was always about Israel not jews (look at the the powerful jews disagreeing and attacking)

my simple response to the above : I cannot for the life of me see how an actual anti semite , could see the leader of the LP taking part in long, respectful jewish rituals with Jews ( left wing, or otherwise, pro or anti Israel,) , on passover "emboldening", ( unless we're reverting back to more traditional " commies and jews in cahoots as usual' tropes, which we're really not , as we're in full "COMMIES VS JEWS" mode, obvs)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've not got any problem with him attending Seder with local jewish friends obvs, but there is no question that it'll piss off the big organisations that claim to speak for 'the jewish community', whom they (Jewdas) so publically trashed. That doesn't bother me personally but its not consistent with what JC said in his happy passover message about how he wants to rebuild relationships etc.

Why have they publicly trashed them, though? Is it due to the way they support Israel?

It is a smear campaign, don't you think? How exactly do you rebuild relationships with people who have deliberately spread disinformation and lies about you in order to topple you from your position?

 

[bimble]

(responding in 2 parts here )

Butchers :
"anti-semites who think they're just anti-zinonist inside and around the labour left/leadership/Corbyn support groups. Their anti-semitic worldview will be be emboldened by what they will see and a nod-and-a- wink from Corbyn and they will have two of their main dishonesties focused on and bolstered - look even jews think like me, how can i then be anti-semitic and see this was always about Israel not jews (look at the the powerful jews disagreeing and attacking)

my simple response to the above : I cannot for the life of me see how an actual anti semite , could see the leader of the LP taking part in long, respectful jewish rituals with Jews ( left wing, or otherwise, pro or anti Israel,) , on passover "emboldening", ( unless we're reverting back to more traditional " commies and jews in cahoots as usual' tropes, which we're really not , as we're in full "COMMIES VS JEWS" mode, obvs)

See to me that just says that you don't understand it, as kind of shown by your use of the term 'an actual antisemite'. Its also quite a lot like 'but some of his best friends are jews'= obvs there's no problem.
I don't think this (JC attending seder with them) is important tbh, but it does look to me like BA's post being incomprehensible kind of illustrates what the wider problem is.
^ not meant as a personal thing against you or anyone here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

See to me that just says that you don't understand it, as kind of shown by your use of the term 'an actual antisemite'. Its also quite a lot like 'but some of his best friends are jews'= obvs there's no problem.
I don't think this (JC attending seder with them) is important tbh, but it does look to me like BA's post being incomprehensible kind of illustrates what the wider problem is.
^ not meant as a personal thing against you or anyone here.

What is the 'wider problem'?

 

[bimble]

What is the 'wider problem'?

By wider problem i just meant basically the particular kinds of AS which were described in that very good statement from Momentum yesterday .

 

[cantsin]

See to me that just says that you don't understand it, as kind of shown by your use of the term 'an actual antisemite'. Its also quite a lot like 'but some of his best friends are jews'= obvs there's no problem.
I don't think this (JC attending seder with them) is important tbh, but it does look to me like BA's post being incomprehensible kind of illustrates what the wider problem is.
^ not meant as a personal thing against you or anyone here.

ok, just some added points re: above

- I fully accept the important point that someone ( partic around anti imperialist / pro Palestine left) who considers themself anti Zionist, can actually be holding / disseminating what could easily, and accurately be interpreted as anti semitic views - discussion / debate / "education" /etc / or ass kicked out of Party need to follow.

But that doesn't involve JC giving these folk a "nod and wink " via what seemed a low key, long, involved evening on Passover- all completely unprovable, but it's just not how he rolls, it's not what he's about.





"

 

[bimble]

Totally agree he didn't attend as a cunning ploy to embolden anyone dodgy!

 

[Fedayn]

We are in fucking La La Land now

angela smith

‏Verified account @angelasmithmp

Corbyn’s attendance at the Jewdas seber reads as a blatant dismissal of the case made for tackling anti-Semitism in Labour. #EnoughisEnough

https://twitter.com/hashtag/EnoughisEnough?src=hash

Tomorrow Corbyns admission that years ago he once didn't finish a beigel will have him on a par with Rudolf Hoess.....

Yours a half Jew....

 

[cantsin]

We are in fucking La La Land now




Tomorrow Corbyns admission that years ago he once didn't finish a beigel will have him on a par with Rudolf Hoess.....

Yours a half Jew....

if the CLPs havent had the chance to decide whether they want to be repped by the likes of Smith, Woodcock, Austin etc before the next election, it's all fucked....

Will always respect JC's conciliatory / inclusive instincts, but am sure there's many of us out there who can't pretend we can share political space with this lot much longer - if the majority of members (at local level) want to keep them, fairplay, that's our problem / offski,etc but reselection, now more than ever, has to be addressed soon.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We are in fucking La La Land now




Tomorrow Corbyns admission that years ago he once didn't finish a beigel will have him on a par with Rudolf Hoess.....

Yours a half Jew....

From her feed

Anyone who seriously thinks there is a conspiracy to destabilise Jeremy Corbyn with false allegations of antisemitism is guilty of one of the oldest antisemitic tropes there is.

To criticise the critics of Corbyn is to fall for antisemitism.

 

[bimble]

Whole thing is depressing every which way you look at it.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

They have been very good on twitter today, full marks for grace and humour whilst under fire...

 

[Knotted]

How does that work then?

I've noticed that there's a resonance for ideas about "Zionist interference/influence" in British politics from some quarters in the Labour Party (online that is). The all powerful Israel lobby ticks the conspiracy, the fringe Palestine solidarity and the nationalist boxes all at once. If combined with anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant sentiment it becomes what is imagined to be the authentic voice of the working class.

 

[Knotted]

I'm probably biased by I think this was a good move by corbyn. Dealing with the issue but doing it on his terms. (That's where his popularity rests to start with)
Ultimately this story is mostly just a media game anyway.
Which is not to say anti semitism doesn't need calling out and dealing with.

I don't think it was a particularly bad move or a particularly good move. But making it in a big story was a bad move. "You've got to do more to combat anti-semitism, but there are certain Jews whom you should ostracize". That's a really bad look.

 

[Fingers]

The Right: "Corbyn is an anti-semite who needs to do more to appeal to Jewish communities.

*Corbyn goes and visits left-wing Jewish communities"

The Right: "No! Those are the wrong Jewish communities!"

The Left: "Since when were there 'right' Jews and 'Wrong' Jews? Surely that in itself is incredibly anti semitic right?

The Right: "These ones don't support Israel though!"

The Left: "So what you're saying is that it was never about religion or culture, but politics?"

*silence*

The Left: "Because to purposely manufacture an anti-semitic atmosphere in order to push a political agenda and smear opponents is incredibly anti-semitic."

*More silence*

Ether this was one hell of a riposte by Corbyn or the Right just shot themselves in the foot spectacularly making themselves look like they've been the anti-semites all along.