Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[DrRingDing]

Going for a curry excludes me. I can't digest strong spices. (OK, I have to settle for the pasanda. )
And no, drinks can't ever be inclusive. But is there actually a problem that needs solving by bonding after work? In the far-off days that we could all do it thoughtlessly, it was great, but is it actually necessary?

Eating together releases oxytocin which helps bonds groups.

Food is the answer.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's a insensitive attitude to take. A lot of people suffer from drinking....and the people around them. It's problematic on a number of levels.

There's serious pressure to join in work drinks and some people may go along due to this pressure.

Historically I've been a 'real ale enthusiast' but i also recognise the harm.

I'm not really talking of the kind of 'obligatory drinks', just socialising because you want to socialise. You're right about 'top-down' organised drinks, but ime in the places I've worked it's not been like that. The drinkers have gone drinking, is all.

 

[DrRingDing]

I'm not really talking of the kind of 'obligatory drinks', just socialising because you want to socialise. You're right about 'top-down' organised drinks, but ime in the places I've worked it's not been like that. The drinkers have gone drinking, is all.

I'm not refering to drinks you are ordered to go to. There is huge pressure to go on purely 'social' sessions.

 

[J Ed]

The idea of drinking anywhere near your boss - or any of the wannabe bosses - is repellent.

...and is ripe for potential exploitation and abuse.

 

[bluescreen]

The drinkers have gone drinking, is all.

Yeh. Not a good strategy, not a good look.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not refering to drinks you are ordered to go to. There is huge pressure to go on purely 'social' sessions.

If there are people you want to hang out with who don't drink, then you will maybe organise something else. Maybe not. Maybe they'll end up being excluded from a night out. But it's heavy-handed social engineering to tell a bunch of people who fancy getting drunk that they shouldn't be going off to the pub.

I've also worked in one place that had tea and cakes on a Friday afternoon. I found it boring as hell, tbh. If we're no longer working, can I have a beer please?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeh. Not a good strategy, not a good look.

If you give a shit about how it looks, probably not.

 

[bluescreen]

No, I don't really. I was being flippant. But yeh, you go ahead.

 

[timeforanother]

I've never worked in a place where drinking after work was important. If it happened it was a nice surprise if it fitted in.

Eating is cool too, but takes a much bigger chunk out of the evening.

Anyway, this was a small point in a much larger agenda from Jez and his team, and they seem pretty open to discussion if you don't start from the position of hating them.

 

[Plumdaff]

But there are workplaces were staying late and drinking are the culture, and socialising with the boss, colleagues and clients are still a key part of getting ahead. It's not coincidence these are often highly paid sectors dominated by white men from certain public schools. As a lowly nurse I've never worked in such places (although with hindsight going down the pub all the time wasn't the most inclusive thing we could've done in several old jobs given the amount of Muslim co-workers) but I have mates in banking and accountancy who were completely sidelined after children for not fitting into the long hours, drinking culture.

 

[Wilf]

...and is ripe for potential exploitation and abuse.

Yep. Even if it's not wandering hands level gross abuse, a boss with a few drinks inside them usually ends up, under the guise of 'banter', offering opinions on fellow workers and expecting you to join in. Yuk. I don't go the pub much after work now, but one of the pleasures about it was a few of you trooping off to the boozer and seeing the the slightly hurt expression in the eye of your now promoted ex colleague. Make the fuckers know they aren't welcome!

 

[Pickman's model]

Nice to see we're following the tabloid agenda and ignoring the equality policies announced.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But there are workplaces were staying late and drinking are the culture, and socialising with the boss, colleagues and clients are still a key part of the culture. It's not coincidence these are often highly paid sectors dominated by white men from certain public schools. As a lowly nurse I've never worked in such places (although with hindsight going down the pub all the time wasn't the most inclusive thing we could've done in several old jobs given the amount of Muslim co-workers) but I have mates in banking and accountancy who were completely sidelined after children for not fitting into the long hours, drinking culture.

Yep, what I've been talking about hasn't been that at all, tbf. I have a mate who works in accountancy and it is all about that with him. He earns shitloads of money.

Corbyn does need to be careful when he addresses this, because there will be a lot of people who drink after work (but not with the bosses) who won't really relate to it.

 

[Plumdaff]

But there's also loads of people for whom it's a no brainer. Even in my NHS job I feel the pressure of long hours culture from some quarters; that I'm somehow taking the piss by working flexible (full time) hours to facilitate childcare. I've been told in at least one job interview that I couldn't have the job if I wanted to work non 9-5 hours without real justification.

 

[bluescreen]

But there's also loads of people for whom it's a no brainer. Even in my NHS job I feel the pressure of long hours culture from some quarters; that I'm somehow taking the piss by working flexible (full time) hours to facilitate childcare. I've been told in at least one job interview that I couldn't have the job if I wanted to work non 9-5 hours without real justification.

That's appalling, Plumdaff. I'm not doubting it happens, just appalled that we let it.

 

[timeforanother]

Nice to see we're following the tabloid agenda and ignoring the equality policies announced.

Agree with PM, and stop overanalysing a small point; after all we have already done it to death anyway.

Given this is a JC thread, can anyone work out how long it will take throwing people out to get the new contender close. I think it was a 24% lead in that poll, not to be complacent.

I didn't like the last Welsh guy in charge, and I am part Welsh (not proper Welsh Welsh).

 

[Plumdaff]

Yeah, it's definitely the Welshness that's the fucking problem

 

[timeforanother]

That's appalling, Plumdaff. I'm not doubting it happens, just appalled that we let it.

Ignore my last comment if there are real stories to tell. I feel a bit of a fool, except most of this subthread was posturing or not knowing what juggling kids and work is like.

 

[timeforanother]

Yeah, it's definitely the Welshness that's the fucking problem

Sighs again, humour! And given my welsh grandma I can make a joke pretending that the problem with Kinnock was tha he had a problem with the Clifton Suspension Bridge.

 

[Celyn]

Ah! But me and diamond have worked in The City. Not together, mind, I'd like to make that clear.

And I worked in The CIty. Shit, none of us are much good. You'd think we could have bombed the Square Mile or brought it to its knees somehow.

 

[Celyn]

Friends who've had jobs in the city tell me participating in post-work drinks is necessary if you want to get anywhere. It's a total no-brainer that this discriminates against women.

Or it discriminates against people who have to dash home for childcare responsibilities, or people whose evenings are devoted to evening classes or Open University, or people who want to get home sharpish to go to meetings of their local trainspotter group or foreign language conversation meetings or chess club or computery-gaming thingy or some kind of religious evening service thing, or Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, or exercise classes or running around hunting Pokemon, or people who prefer not to spend a minute more than necessary with the work colleagues, or people who have to get home to feed their large collection of pet rattlesnakes* or whatever, and some of these might be women and some of them might be men, and judging by some people I have worked with, some of them might be extremely strange aliens, but it is by no means obvious that all are women.

And all of those dash-home-ASAP things are no doubt terribly important to the people who choose to do them, but they do *choose* to do them. Their choices do not in and of themselves prove that somebody is discriminating against them.

Actually, it could very well be that women joining in an after-work drinks scene could find themselves being deliberately frozen out and made to feel very uncomfortable by the men, and that would indicate discrimination rather more than people staying away from such in-group "networking" for other reasons does.

* It occurs to me that snakes might be things that don't really care about feeding times. Oh well then, illegal pet wolves or something.

 

[Celyn]

It excludes a lot of people. Going for a curry is more inclusive and less damaging.

But you could agree for stop for one drink or two, then be heading off soonishly, whereas going for a curry takes a bit more time, and you're pretty much committed to waiting for the food to happen and then eating it, and then possibly a drink to wash it down ... quite a time sink.

Also, might really not like curry, whereas most people are capable of finding some liquid that they enjoy drinking.

I can see that the many woes of the Labour Party are going to get subsumed into worries about workplace cultures.

 

[kabbes]

I've read* that the cultural expectation in Denmark us that at the end of the contacted work day, you go home to spend time with your family and friends, and that those hanging around are looked down on and that everybody is the happier for it. The idea that you hang around after work to spend yet more time with the people you are already contractually obliged to spend 40 hours a week with seems to be particularly anglophone. It isn't a natural law.


*Affluenza by Oliver James, if memory serves.

 

[two sheds]

It grinds me teeth to say it, but I actually agree with you.

That Corbyn has said "Nothing on Brexit, nothing on energy policy, nothing about actually opposing the government."?

It's not true though is it - even in that one talk he talked about actually opposing the government. And he was discussing problems experienced by women in the work place so why would he discuss Brexit or energy policy?

And from the discussions it seems the after work drinks culture is actually a problem with some jobs. You might find it trivial (it's not something I've come across because I'm male and I work freelance) but he was addressing problems experienced by women and it seems it's a problem experienced by women.

Is he not allowed to raise it because it's going to be pounced on by the media? Just about anything he says is pounced on by the media.

 

[Sprocket.]

Never had the culture in my career of drinks after work, we all were more concerned at getting home to our families and/or pastimes.
Most of the blokes I have worked with would never drink with management anyway.

 

[inva]

I saw this link saying Corbyn pledged to support all-women shortlists and 50:50 representation in the cabinet and shadow cabinet and a number of other things regarding Labour Party structures and behaviour of members. And I also remember when Corbyn first became leader he said about women being a majority in a Labour shadow cabinet for the first time (might have misremembered, but it was something like that), though I don't know if that's still the case for his new cabinet.

This got me thinking has he implemented any measures or pledged to do so about working class representation in the Labour Party? I've not heard of anything, though with the way his leadership has gone it might not have been publicised. I would've thought for someone of parliamentary socialist views this would be quite important (though I kind of think that if you become an mp it's not really credible to claim you're working class anymore mind you but leaving that aside...).

Has there been any talk of all-working class shortlists (or from working class backgrounds anyway)? Or a proportionate ratio of MPs, councillors, etc? It ought to be about 60:40 in favour of working class if that were implemented.

Searching on google hasn't come up with anything - has anyone heard of policies like that?

 

[belboid]

Has there been any talk of all-working class shortlists (or from working class backgrounds anyway)?

Not really workable, is it? Define 'working class' - just for starters. Lawyers still sell their labour, y'know

 

[bi0boy]

I've read* that the cultural expectation in Denmark us that at the end of the contacted work day, you go home to spend time with your family and friends, and that those hanging around are looked down on and that everybody is the happier for it. The idea that you hang around after work to spend yet more time with the people you are already contractually obliged to spend 40 hours a week with seems to be particularly anglophone. It isn't a natural law.

Yes, apparently it's perfectly normal over there for high-level executives to run out of important board meetings to pick the kids up from school.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Not really workable, is it? Define 'working class' - just for starters. Lawyers still sell their labour, y'know

'Not privately educated' maybe?

 

[belboid]

'Not privately educated' maybe?

Seamus wont let that one past