Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Sue]

What a despicable letter.

The bullying accusations are bizarre considering that what's happening to Corbyn can easily be described as bullying. He doesn't use that description because he doesn't do personality politics, but the collusion of the "rebels" and the media to constantly batter him with lies in the press and heckle him from his own backbenches is definitely bullying. They're basically crying because they keep hitting him and he refuses to fall down.

I specially like this bit:

'Of course we would not have had a leadership election had Jeremy Corbyn done the honourable thing and resigned as leader of the party.'

which certainly illustrates that they wouldn't recognise 'honourable' if they fell over it.

 

[Sprocket.]

What do we think Dai Smith makes of his son's political trajectory? I don't know his politics, but holding the Raymond Williams Chair of Cultural History and writing biographies of Williams and Bevan suggest he might be a little disappointed. Perhaps someone ask him to have a word, try to get his son to see sense, no need for a clip around the year, but he could lend him a copy of Mayday Manifesto, or Keywords.

Probably thinks the same of his sons as would Ralph Miliband and Tony Benn!

 

[Wilf]

This is really offensive.

I was going to say this shows Smith to be an incompetent, heavy handed PR propagandist (which it does). But the more obvious point is it also shows how far detached he is from the real lives of people employed by firms like sportsdirect. What a twat.

 

[Wilf]

Having said a couple of pages back that it's depressing to get all forensic on the bullying claims/counter claims... I'm going to do just that. Apart from the brick of destiny (aka the brick NOT thrown Aaargh's window), what is the best evidence for the bullying claim? Amid all the wailing, media briefing, spit-gates and cancelled surgeries, do we have any concrete allegations? Anyone named, anyone interviewed by police? Any individuals suspended by the party itself?

p.s. I do know about the bloke arrested in Scotland for death threats (to Aaargh, I think).

 

[maomao]

I specially like this bit:

'Of course we would not have had a leadership election had Jeremy Corbyn done the honourable thing and resigned as leader of the party.'

which certainly illustrates that they wouldn't recognise 'honourable' if they fell over it.

It's also a really dumb thing to say. If Corbyn had resigned there would surely have to be a leadership election.

 

[Rob Ray]

A note from 2013 during the direct action campaign against workfare firms (itself far more active than what's going on now), which I always like to remember at times like these:

When politicians scream about "thugs intimidating workfare providers" it may be worth reminding them of what happened to landowners who tried to impose a workhouse in Suffolk in the 1760s. Workhouses were where people who couldn't support themselves were sent and were notorious for demanding long days of toil for little more than room and board at what amounted to a prison.

First, the entrepreneurs funding the new facility got a letter in which they were told: "Let them tak care of thin selves for farit that is hap on shall there Brains be Blown out and that as sure as death and fail not and the hous shall not be bilt a toyle."

Then when these directors met at the White Hart in Wickham Market, on 11th August....

"The inn was soon surrounded by a crowd of 500, men, women, and children. Armed with cudgels the men first occupied the outbuildings, then forced their way into the room where the officials were gathered. The directors were taken away to a nearby bowling green and held under guard.
"The records of the poor in the different parishes were destroyed, and the 'leaders of the mob' insisted that the poor should be maintained as before, and that, 'they should range at liberty and be their own masters; that this was only the beginning of their work, for they intended that Nacton House and all other buildings of that sort should be levelled with the ground'."

Several workhouses - and at least one house of a local gent who refused to provide beer - were levelled over the next few weeks.
​

That's intimidation. This crap is playtime.

 

[mk12]

We must all be aware of Mr Corbyn's ability to pull a crowd by now, surely?

Exactly. He is very popular among left-of-labourites (greens, trots, various other socialists), public sector trade union activists and politicised students. He is not popular enough among those that really matter electorally. Basically, he's good at preaching to the converted, but his views on immigration and Brexit are way out of step with w/c opinion in this country.

On top of the dire voting intention polls, these are pretty damning:

(ICM 13-15 July) Better able to manage the economy: May/Hammond 53%, Corbyn/McDonnell 15%
(ComRes 16 July) Who will make a better PM: May 58%, Corbyn 19%
(Ipsos Mori 14 July) Labour should change its leader before next election: Yes 66%, No 25%

 

[Pickman's model]

Exactly. He is very popular among left-of-labourites (greens, trots, various other socialists), public sector trade union activists and politicised students. He is not popular enough among those that really matter electorally. Basically, he's good at preaching to the converted, but his views on immigration and Brexit are way out of step with w/c opinion in this country.

so is your prescription a) that he seek to persuade "w/c opinion" (by which i suppose you mean "the opinion of those parts of the w/c which don't already agree with him"); or b) that he seek to adjust his politics to suit those people who don't agree with him?

 

[Wilf]

(ICM 13-15 July) Better able to manage the economy: May/Hammond 53%, Corbyn/McDonnell 15%
(ComRes 16 July) Who will make a better PM: May 58%, Corbyn 19%
(Ipsos Mori 14 July) Labour should change its leader before next election: Yes 66%, No 25%

Ironically, the Blairites have probably made this less rather than more likely.

 

[scifisam]

Right of centre people will vote Tory or Lib Dem. There is absolutely no point trying to win them over. All it does is alienate waverers and left of centre voters.

And yes, it's no bloody surprise Corbyn's polling low right now - given the behaviour of those Labour MPs it'd be astounding if he weren't. Pointing at his low poll ratings after being undermined by his MPs is like kneecapping someone then criticising them for not being able to walk.

 

[Raheem]

Pointing at his low poll ratings after being undermined by his MPs is like kneecapping someone then criticising them for not being able to walk.

Hang on a second. Did you just threaten, in unambiguous language, to kneecap Angela Eagle? I can't see any other way to read that comment.

Now, where's that bloody number for the Mirror exclusives desk?

 

[scifisam]

Also I don't think his views on Brexit and immigration are that out of step with the working classes, unless the suggestion is that all the working class are racists and that the working class leave votes were driven largely by that.

 

[mk12]

Right of centre people will vote Tory or Lib Dem.

What about those that vote UKIP in former Labour heartlands?

 

[killer b]

Exactly. He is very popular among left-of-labourites (greens, trots, various other socialists), public sector trade union activists and politicised students. He is not popular enough among those that really matter electorally. Basically, he's good at preaching to the converted, but his views on immigration and Brexit are way out of step with w/c opinion in this country.

On top of the dire voting intention polls, these are pretty damning:

(ICM 13-15 July) Better able to manage the economy: May/Hammond 53%, Corbyn/McDonnell 15%
(ComRes 16 July) Who will make a better PM: May 58%, Corbyn 19%
(Ipsos Mori 14 July) Labour should change its leader before next election: Yes 66%, No 25%

We all saw those figures yesterday, I'm not sure why you're posting them here now as if it's check mate.

I don't deny they look bad: but as with any figures, context is everything. We're in the middle of a dirty battle for control of Labour, one which has been ongoing since before Corbyn became leader. One of the tactics of the rebels is to question the competence of the leadership in the most strident terms, which had been echoed and amplified by an onside press.

Even people who might otherwise be sympathetic to Corbyn's politics can be forgiven for looking at the basket case that is the labour party in 2016 and think 'fuck that'.

Before the latest flare up of the dirty war, even with a relentlessly hostile press and substantial portions of the party openly briefing against the leadership, labour was level against the tories. Imagine where they might have been had there been a party and shadow cabinet United behind the leader? They would be ahead. It might even have been possible for them to have run a more effective campaign for staying in the EU, enough for the referendum result to be different... but no.

If labour's polls are disastrous atm, the fault for that doesn't lie with Corbyn. It lies with the plp who've sabotaged his every move for the last 9 months.

 

[mk12]

Also I don't think his views on Brexit and immigration are that out of step with the working classes, unless the suggestion is that all the working class are racists and that the working class leave votes were driven largely by that.

Where did race come into it? Poll after poll shows that immigration is one of the top issues facing Britain today, and that most people want immigration reduced. But Corbyn barely talks about, I suspect because he is unashamadely pro-free movement and because he knows that that view isn't really a vote winner.

 

[mk12]

We all saw those figures yesterday, I'm not sure why you're posting them here now as if it's check mate.

I don't deny they look bad: but as with any figures, context is everything. We're in the middle of a dirty battle for control of Labour, one which has been ongoing since before Corbyn became leader. One of the tactics of the rebels is to question the competence of the leadership in the most strident terms, which had been echoed and amplified by an onside press.

Even people who might otherwise be sympathetic to Corbyn's politics can be forgiven for looking at the basket case that is the labour party in 2016 and think 'fuck that'.

Before the latest flare up of the dirty war, even with a relentlessly hostile press and substantial portions of the party openly briefing against the leadership, labour was level against the tories. Imagine where they might have been had there been a party and shadow cabinet United behind the leader? They would be ahead. It might even have been possible for them to have run a more effective campaign for staying in the EU, enough for the referendum result to be different... but no.

If labour's polls are disastrous atm, the fault for that doesn't lie with Corbyn. It lies with the plp who've sabotaged his every move for the last 9 months.

They are not just looking at the Labour party and thinking 'fuck that', those polls suggest they have a serious problem with Corbyn.

 

[Rob Ray]

I don't deny they look bad: but as with any figures, context is everything.

More than that, posting them is singular evidence that mk12 still has no idea what's actually going on. He still doesn't get that Corbyn's personal polling data is not and has never been the issue either for his own side or for the 172 rebels.

 

[scifisam]

What about those that vote UKIP in former Labour heartlands?

Doesn't UKIP do at least as well in former Tory heartlands? My hometown is strongly UKIP in its council but is historically Tory. So's Carswell's Clacton. In fact I think you might well have it backwards about "Labour heartlands."

My neighbours who voted UKIP were not all racist, either, and I mean genuinely not racist, not just hiding it well. Racism is only part of Ukip's appeal.

You seem to be using UKIP votes, wrongly, as evidence that the working class are mostly racist. That's a pretty shitty point of view.

 

[mk12]

More than that, posting them is singular evidence that mk12 still has no idea what's actually going on. He still doesn't get that Corbyn's personal polling data is not and has never been the issue either for his own side or for the 172 rebels.

His personal polling data is important if he hopes to win the next election.

 

[Rob Ray]

But he's not hoping to win the next election. Nor are the rebels (or at least the key players). They both want to win the Labour Party.

 

[mk12]

Doesn't UKIP do at least as well in former Tory heartlands? My hometown is strongly UKIP in its council but is historically Tory. So's Carswell's Clacton. In fact I think you might well have it backwards about "Labour heartlands."

My neighbours who voted UKIP were not all racist, either, and I mean genuinely not racist, not just hiding it well. Racism is only part of Ukip's appeal.

You seem to be using UKIP votes, wrongly, as evidence that the working class are mostly racist. That's a pretty shitty point of view.

I have absolutely no idea how you've come to that conclusion. You seemed to be suggesting that right-of-centre people can't be won to Labour. Fair enough. I was wondering how you think w/c UKIP voters can be won back to Labour.

 

[scifisam]

I have absolutely no idea how you've come to that conclusion. You seemed to be suggesting that right-of-centre people can't be won to Labour. Fair enough. I was wondering how you think w/c UKIP voters can be won back to Labour.

I read the words you wrote. What did you mean by saying that Corbyn's views on immigration and Brexit were out of step with the working classes, then? Either you're accusing Corbyn of being racist or it's the working class you're accusing. Which is it?

You're wrong about UKIP mostly being strong in former Labour heartlands. Don't assume that working class = Labour; there have always been working class Tories.

 

[killer b]

They are not just looking at the Labour party and thinking 'fuck that', those polls suggest they have a serious problem with Corbyn.

His 'personal ratings' are intimately tied up with how well he's doing as labour leader. Even the most ardent Corbyn fan would recognise he's not having such an easy ride there.

 

[mk12]

I read the words you wrote. What did you mean by saying that Corbyn's views on immigration and Brexit were out of step with the working classes, then? Either you're accusing Corbyn of being racist or it's the working class you're accusing. Which is it?

Corbyn is pro-immigration and was pro-remain. Most w/c people in Britain have concerns with immigration and want it reduced, and voted Leave. What has racism got to do with any of this?

 

[Rob Ray]

Corbyn is pro-immigration and was pro-remain. Most w/c people in Britain have concerns with immigration and want it reduced, and voted Leave.

Which working class would that be then? Older working class? Younger working class? Northern working class? Urban working class? Black working class? White working class? What was their reasoning? Are there other ways to deal with the causes of such voting trends than pandering to "send 'em back" viewpoints?

 

[butchersapron]

Corbyn is pro-immigration and was pro-remain. Most w/c people in Britain have concerns with immigration and want it reduced, and voted Leave. What has racism got to do with any of this?

Given that all sides want free movement - or recognise this as inevitable - what is the point of suggesting Corbyn is uniquely doing badly because of this?

 

[Wilf]

We all saw those figures yesterday, I'm not sure why you're posting them here now as if it's check mate.

I don't deny they look bad: but as with any figures, context is everything. We're in the middle of a dirty battle for control of Labour, one which has been ongoing since before Corbyn became leader. One of the tactics of the rebels is to question the competence of the leadership in the most strident terms, which had been echoed and amplified by an onside press.

Even people who might otherwise be sympathetic to Corbyn's politics can be forgiven for looking at the basket case that is the labour party in 2016 and think 'fuck that'.

Before the latest flare up of the dirty war, even with a relentlessly hostile press and substantial portions of the party openly briefing against the leadership, labour was level against the tories. Imagine where they might have been had there been a party and shadow cabinet United behind the leader? They would be ahead. It might even have been possible for them to have run a more effective campaign for staying in the EU, enough for the referendum result to be different... but no.

If labour's polls are disastrous atm, the fault for that doesn't lie with Corbyn. It lies with the plp who've sabotaged his every move for the last 9 months.

I don't disagree with your analysis, just the emphasis. Where you have the figures looking bad, I'd go with very bad and I'd quibble about Labour being level before the latest onslaught of attacks. I won't bother rehearsing the problems with polls, but on the raw figures they've only had 3 leads since the last election:
Opinion polling for the next United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point isn't to quibble with the figures/terms, it's more that it's hard to see Labour/Corbyn as party/pm shaping up for power. May well be that if the right are purged it has a chance of being a functional party in the future, who knows, but for the foreseeable period things are only going to get worse (battles over de-selections, legal challenges etc.).

 

[mk12]

Given that all sides want free movement - or recognise this as inevitable - what is the point of suggesting Corbyn is uniquely doing badly because of this?

I wouldn't say that he is doing uniquely badly because of this, but it certainly doesn't help his cause.

 

[brogdale]

McCluskey calls the Corbynist 'bullying' as false flag.

Intelligence services posing as Jeremy Corbyn supporters could be behind the abuse and intimidation of MPs on social media in an attempt to “stir up trouble” for the Labour leader, the Unite boss Len McCluskey has suggested, writes Jessica Elgot and Decca Aitkenhead

Speaking to the Guardian, the general secretary of the UK’s largest trade union and one of Corbyn’s strongest supporters said he thought “dark practices” would ultimately be uncovered by the 30-year rule, under which classified documents are released into the public domain three decades after being written.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't disagree with your analysis, just the emphasis. Where you have the figures looking bad, I'd go with very bad and I'd quibble about Labour being level before the latest onslaught of attacks. I won't bother rehearsing the problems with polls, but on the raw figures they've only had 3 leads since the last election:
Opinion polling for the next United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point isn't to quibble with the figures/terms, it's more that it's hard to see Labour/Corbyn as party/pm shaping up for power. May well be that if the right are purged it has a chance of being a functional party in the future, who knows, but for the foreseeable period things are only going to get worse (battles over de-selections, legal challenges etc.).

In terms of polls - does doing really badly a year after the election always = omg destruction? Quite a big thing to answer regardless of the wider context this is happening in.