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Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

Who is 'we'? The right aren't going to stop, so all that will happen is that you will give the far right a blank cheque to power
strangely they contain parties and politicians too. say what you like about the abominable groovysunday but abandoning politicians and parties would obviously (at least to anyone bar you) mean abandoning parties and groups of the right too. and a great number of people have abandoned eg the tory party
 
oh shit yes i knew there was something i was meant to do today, one sec i'll replace it now, thanks for the reminder
A stupid comment that's not funny and completely misses the point.

Anyway, I guess I'm wasting my time with these politics threads. Most of you seem to be very much a part of the Left. The left hand of capital is part of the problem and is very much the enemy of the working class and of freedom.
 
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A stupid comment that's not funny and completely misses the point.

Anyway, I guess I'm wasting my time here. Most of you seem to be very much a part of the Left. The left hand of capital is part of the problem and is very much the enemy.
This forum was once more your "thing". But whilst the maxim ", you get more conservative as you age" isn't strictly true, it's certainly noticeable that electoral politics is more Urban's thing than it once was. As has been said before, this place isn't on so many watchlists as it once was.
 
A stupid comment that's not funny and completely misses the point.

Anyway, I guess I'm wasting my time here. Most of you seem to be very much a part of the Left. The left hand of capital is part of the problem and is very much the enemy.

Now that you've finally decided that urban is your enemy, what do you propose to do?

When can we expect hostilities to start, and will you be bound by Geneva conventions?
 
I don't think that's correct.

I if GroovySunday is who I think they are, the last time they were banned.

It was the time before that they stormed off in a sulk.

Does make you wonder why they're back again, given how much contempt they appear to hold everyone here in
So with the Tragedy and the Farce already accomplished...what comes next? :D
 
I don't think that's correct.

I if GroovySunday is who I think they are, the last time they were banned.

It was the time before that they stormed off in a sulk.

Does make you wonder why they're back again, given how much contempt they appear to hold everyone here in

TBF I think it was a 'I'm going to keep acting the twat until you ban me' sort of sulk. So maybe we're both right.
 
A stupid comment that's not funny and completely misses the point.

Anyway, I guess I'm wasting my time with these politics threads. Most of you seem to be very much a part of the Left. The left hand of capital is part of the problem and is very much the enemy of the working class and of freedom.
Is Corbyn part of the 'left hand of capital', in your opinion? Or Yolanda Díaz? José Mujica, how about him? Melenchon? Is there anyone involved in electoral politics in the contemporary world who isn't one hand or the other of capital?
 
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Is Corbyn part of the 'left hand of capital', in your opinion? Or Yolanda Díaz? José Mujica, how about him? Melenchon? Is there anyone involved in electoral politics in the contemporary world who isn't one hand or the other of capital?
To be fair, any left wing politico engaged in electoral politics is technically the left of capital as liberal (bourgeois) democracy and its parliaments are all part and parcel of capitalism. It doesn't make those examples of yours bad people, just well meaning palliative carers of a rotten system that has to go. That said, this Groovy Sunday character turning up here to shout at other posters for not being revolutionary enough, while telling us he's not interested in organisations and doesn't really know what they're for, is a fucking joke... and probably best ignored.
 
To be fair, any left wing politico engaged in electoral politics is technically the left of capital as liberal (bourgeois) democracy and its parliaments are all part and parcel of capitalism. It doesn't make those examples of yours bad people, just well meaning palliative carers of a rotten system that has to go. That said, this Groovy Sunday character turning up here to shout at other posters for not being revolutionary enough, while telling us he's not interested in organisations and doesn't really know what they're for, is a fucking joke... and probably best ignored.
Ok so to take Mujica as the example, was he wrong to stand for election after helping his country to rid itself of dictatorship (a dictatorship that had tortured and imprisoned him)? Is there an alternative path that you think he could or should have taken? Uruguay moved in a very positive direction under his presidency. Could or should he have done better?

The idea that such people are 'the enemy' is absurd. tbh the idea that they are merely palliative carers of a rotten system is also kind of absurd. Things can be a whole lot worse. They were in Uruguay.
 
Ok so to take Mujica as the example, was he wrong to stand for election after helping his country to rid itself of dictatorship (a dictatorship that had tortured and imprisoned him)? Is there an alternative path that you think he could or should have taken? Uruguay moved in a very positive direction under his presidency. Could or should he have done better?

The idea that such people are 'the enemy' is absurd. tbh the idea that they are merely palliative carers of a rotten system is also kind of absurd. Things can be a whole lot worse. They were in Uruguay.
You're not arguing with Groovy Sunday here, you know :rolleyes:

Of course things can be a whole lot worse, that doesn't mean we have to embrace them all as comrades. Next election here in the UK, the main opposition party is that of Sir Keir Starmer. Some would argue that, with all his faults, Starmer is still a positive direction after years of Tory rule. Would you?
 
You're not arguing with Groovy Sunday here, you know :rolleyes:

Of course things can be a whole lot worse, that doesn't mean we have to embrace them all as comrades. Next election here in the UK, the main opposition party is that of Sir Keir Starmer. Some would argue that, with all his faults, Starmer is still a positive direction after years of Tory rule. Would you?
I feel entirely disenfranchised now that Starmer has taken over the Labour Party. I won't be voting for him.

But that does stand in contrast to Corbyn's Labour Party. For the first time in my adult life, I felt like Labour were worth voting for under him. They were talking about a world that I recognised as the one I live in. Maybe things would have gone pear-shaped with him in power, who knows? But it would have been worth the punt. Because I don't think all electoral politics is the same. It is limited, of course, but it's demonstrably true that elected governments of various kinds, such as that of José Mujica in Uruguay, can make a difference. In this world right now with the challenges we face, that matters.

Also, you're doing the same thing here as amateur agitator. Either we embrace them all as comrades or they're all totally worthless. Nothing in between. I think that's childish politics.
 
If Corbyn had been elected he would have faced an immediate attack by capital, with there result that either he would buckle and fail to follow through on what was in the manifesto, or he'd have faced an internal rebellion and being removed for a more sensible candidate, a la Truss.

The only way to ensure real improvements for workers is to ensure the wider movement is organised and powerful enough to stop backsliding and/or fight off any attack from capital. Elected governments make a difference what the labour movement has the power to push them to.
 
Would not have been straightforward to have ousted Corbyn from within if he'd won an election. Truss never won an election - no MPs owed their positions to her. MPs hadn't stood for election on her manifesto. Very different scenario.

I agree with your second paragraph fwiw. Of course wider movements are needed.
 
Would not have been straightforward to have ousted Corbyn from within if he'd won an election. Truss never won an election - no MPs owed their positions to her. MPs hadn't stood for election on her manifesto. Very different scenario.

I agree with your second paragraph fwiw. Of course wider movements are needed.
He won an election by a country mile and you saw how the plp undermined him and cost the Labour party the 2017 election. If you think it wouldn't have been straightforward for the plp to oust him you've forgotten, or never knew, how Ken livingstone became leader of the glc. A similar move, this time from the right, would have been prepared and put into effect within months.
 
Would not have been straightforward to have ousted Corbyn from within if he'd won an election. Truss never won an election - no MPs owed their positions to her. MPs hadn't stood for election on her manifesto. Very different scenario.
Whatever mechanisms come into play, come into play they will. The precedent is, of course, Mitterand in France, who for whatever combination of reasons - and the reasons are debated, but are no doubt subtle and various - chose austerity and “responsibility” over his initial programme: a decision which led to forty years of economic liberalization and trade union decline in France.

Whether ousting, pressure, financial flight, or whatever, Corbyn’s route would not have been smooth.
 
Would not have been straightforward to have ousted Corbyn from within if he'd won an election. Truss never won an election - no MPs owed their positions to her. MPs hadn't stood for election on her manifesto. Very different scenario.

I agree with your second paragraph fwiw. Of course wider movements are needed.
Well, you say my politics are childish but you're being incredibly naive here. Corybn, had he won, would have had to fit in and toe the establishment line (as well as accept daily pressure from high up civil servants and his mostly right wing MPs), otherwise he wouldn't have lasted five minutes as PM. You make the mistake of thinking that whoever is in charge holds real power. To some extent they do as long as they fit in and do pretty much what the ruling class demands (allowing for a little bit of political/ideological flexibility here and there to show a bit of difference). And if they can't or won't toe the line, they're fucked.

For the record, I quite liked Corbyn as a human being and thought he was as honorable as it gets for a politician. Still doesn't make him a comrade. Hmm... I think that should pass as a proper something "in-between" comment, much as you don't recognise it as such. Like I say though, you seem to think you're arguing with Groovy Sunday here.
 
If only someone had posted up a thoughtful postmortem on Corbynism in the last page or so that we could now be discussing...
The fluke nature of the 2015 leadership election meant that we were faced by an unusual strategic challenge: an advanced party of the left was isolated at the top of a major electoral party, surrounded by working class quiescence in the rest of society. And rather than a leftist opposition providing a catalyst for extra parliamentary opposition, the situation only seemed to be getting worse. Strike numbers continued to decline, and the anti-austerity movement vanished into the wind. With their demands increasingly being integrated into the program of a party that seemed like it could be in government before long, activists switched their mobilising energies from the streets to constituency Labour parties. Rather than the party catalysing autonomous class forces, it seemed to swallow them...

Our slogan became ‘Corbynism from Below,’ and we attempted to build a base that could support our counter attacking ambitions.4 This took the form of a kind of absurd reverse Jenga: we had a left wing leader of the Labour party, now we need to reinvigorate the rank and file of the trade union movement; to organise tenants; to build fundamental community infrastructure.5

This was an uphill task for multiple reasons: not only did we have to undo years of decay in the working class movement, but we had to do it whilst fundamentally unsupported by the dominant factions within our own project. Post-2017, the left Labourites and the class struggle social democrats in the leadership and the movement elite increasingly began to reach a strategic agreement about how the membership should be mobilised. They would be asked to join a union, vote for the left slate in internal elections, support left candidates locally, and work for a Labour election victory, but not to democratically shape the direction of travel or build antagonistic working class forces beyond the party...

The slow grind of conflict continued thereafter, with an increasingly sharp divide emerging between those who believed (often on the basis of the 2017 campaign) that the movement needed strong central institutions capable of directing a mass movement through the tribulations of a primarily electoral struggle, and those who believed that the process of deepening the class power underlying the project demanded a radical democratisation and embrace of extra-parliamentary methods. As time wore on, it became increasingly clear that the former was winning...

Corbynism had never, in all its four years, produced the kind of autonomous class power that would have been necessary to implement a transformative program. The whole movement had, for all of our more transgressive desires, remained strictly within the limits of bourgeois politics.

Corbynism from Below was never more than a minoritarian slogan. The movement was weak, and if the party fluked its way into government it would probably have been smashed to pieces within the year. At the end of the Corbyn era, the British working class was largely just as disorganised and weak as it was before. What gains there were remained squarely on the level of ideas – austerity realism had started to be dismantled, and millions had heard the fundamental arguments in favour of social democratic policies. That is, however, a very limited form of victory.
That's not me, or GroovySunday or serge or squirrel or DLR or whoever, saying that the entire Corbyn movement never produced anything lasting in terms of class power, it's the former head of communications for Momentum. Obviously, history plays out the way it does, people have the ideas that they do and so on, so it's not much use me saying "these tens of thousands of people should all have done my preferred strategy instead", they did what they did because it made sense to them at the time. But we can critically assess their legacy, and it seems to me like there's not much legacy left.
 
It's worth remembering that one, quite early, step Corbyn took as leader was to support the motion by the NEC to ban Labour councils from setting illegal budgets. Despite one of Labour's historic moments arising from such an action.

So even before he got to number 10 there was already some toeing of the line.

ETA: And this is when the 'enemy' nature of Labour is clear. I know decent people in the LP, who do try to work to improve conditions for workers. But the party is at this very minute attacking workers - 100 redundancies proposed for Bradford Council, the attack on workers in Gaza, etc
 
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