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Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

Brainaddict said:
She's one of the few MPs in parliament who consistently refers to class, and to social movements as the key driver of change and referrent for her politics, but she didn't say exactly what you want so you're going to bitch and moan about it. This is why we can't have nice things.
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It’s hardly a minor point. It’s hardly an omission of a particular hobby force or cause.

The idea that all that’s needed is to double down on the disaster strategy pursued in 2019 is a significant and strategic matter.
 
Brainaddict said:
She's one of the few MPs in parliament who consistently refers to class, and to social movements as the key driver of change and referrent for her politics, but she didn't say exactly what you want so you're going to bitch and moan about it. This is why we can't have nice things.
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i don't think you understand her at all if 'this is why we can't have nice things' is your conclusion. back in the dim and distant past i and a colleague or two from london fight the poll tax met dennis skinner in parliament, and he he said you'll do much more to get change outside this place than inside. very true. and here you have another mp telling you that social movements are the key driver of change and you don't listen. if mps won't or can't deliver meaningful change except in a negative direction then what use are they?
 
Pickman's model said:
i don't think you understand her at all if 'this is why we can't have nice things' is your conclusion. back in the dim and distant past i and a colleague or two from london fight the poll tax met dennis skinner in parliament, and he he said you'll do much more to get change outside this place than inside. very true. and here you have another mp telling you that social movements are the key driver of change and you don't listen. if mps won't or can't deliver meaningful change except in a negative direction then what use are they?
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Within the institutional frameworks we have to deal with, having people in power who realise that the best type of power lies with movements is a positive thing, I would say. It's not about relying on MPs, but there can be positives about having people with power who are more on your side than others. Having a go at them all the time for not have the pure view of class struggle that you hold is just worthless noise tbh. You do the proper class struggle, if that's what you want, and see if the MPs respond when you need them to, but don't rely on them.
 
Brainaddict said:
Within the institutional frameworks we have to deal with, having people in power who realise that the best type of power lies with movements is a positive thing, I would say.
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i am very surprised by your suggestion that social movements have the best form of power, when the thing 'social movement' is not either positive or negative. there are progressive social movements; there are regressive social movements.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
Good anarcho-anarchist with anarchist characteristics analysis, but if that were her objective wouldn't she be cosying up to the revisionist Starmer clique?
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When did you become a supporter of pacts with the middle class and electoralism?

And no, she wouldn’t. Her brand of politics has been safely contained, accommodated and marginalised for as long as the Labour Party has existed

ETA: and I’m not even criticising her for that. But some mention of the organised working class, collective organisation and movements outside of electoral considerations shouldn’t be too much of an ask should it??
 
Brainaddict said:
Within the institutional frameworks we have to deal with, having people in power who realise that the best type of power lies with movements is a positive thing, I would say. It's not about relying on MPs, but there can be positives about having people with power who are more on your side than others. Having a go at them all the time for not have the pure view of class struggle that you hold is just worthless noise tbh. You do the proper class struggle, if that's what you want, and see if the MPs respond when you need them to, but don't rely on them.
Click to expand...

As usual your arguing about a point that hasn’t been made. Of course it’s useful to have people in power on your side, but the point I was making is that in the interview her strategy was silent on social movements, unions, left behind communities where a political vacuum exists and merely restated the previous (failed) strategy of pursuing an alliance of the youth, Muslims and middle class liberals
 
Smokeandsteam said:
When did you become a supporter of pacts with the middle class and electoralism?

And no, she wouldn’t. Her brand of politics has been safely contained, accommodated and marginalised for as long as the Labour Party has existed

ETA: and I’m not even criticising her for that. But some mention of the organised working class, collective organisation and movements outside of electoral considerations shouldn’t be too much of an ask should it??
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Middle-age man takes to the internet to denounce 28 year-old working class socialist muslim woman based off of one quote from the New Statesman. Strong look.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
Middle-age man takes to the internet to denounce 28 year-old working class socialist muslim woman based off of one quote from the New Statesman. Strong look.
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It’s not just the quote though is it? It’s the certain knowledge of where the strategy leads, it’s the obdurate refusal to learn lessons, it’s the obsession with electoralism. It’s the fact that if it doesn’t work the response will be to demand Starmer goes and then attempt the same approach with a different leader. It’s the fact that what she says represents a mindset that brooks no reflection.

But by all means present this as some form of personal attack rather admit she’s talking shite if it makes you feel better. But my only personal comment on Sultana is that given the support she’s had from Unite in Birmingham and where she comes from I was disappointed to see her echo the line
 
"obdurate refusal to learn lessons" - what are you, a private school headmaster from 1932?
 
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Smokeandsteam said:
As usual your arguing about a point that hasn’t been made. Of course it’s useful to have people in power on your side, but the point I was making is that in the interview her strategy was silent on social movements, unions, left behind communities where a political vacuum exists and merely restated the previous (failed) strategy of pursuing an alliance of the youth, Muslims and middle class liberals
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Maybe she takes unions as read, given the famous, historic and strong links between Labour and the unions?

There's massive crossover between the groups mentioned - young people and Muslims exist in left-behind communities, they are trade unionists etc. etc.

I don't like the term progressive because if is often used in a sneering way, but not all 'progressives' by any means are middle class - that's just a stereotype, just one notch above 'do gooders' and 'champagne socialists'. E.g. I would see many (most?) TU leaders, and Sultana herself, as 'progressive'. Not sure that many of them would self-define as middle class.
 
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Jeff Robinson said:
I’d give them an A+. They did their best to stop this country becoming a neo-Trumpian shithole but everybody else - electorate included - fucked it up.
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You express outrage at any hint of criticism of anyone on the soggy labour left who are calling for pacts with fellow middle class liberals but slag off and blame millions of people for capitalism. Just lol.

Ever get the feeling a rethink of the modus operandi might be useful?
 
Smokeandsteam said:
You express outrage at any hint of criticism of anyone on the soggy labour left who are calling for pacts with fellow middle class liberals but slag off and blame millions of people for capitalism. Just lol.

Ever get the feeling a rethink of the modus operandi might be useful?
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Yet in your bizarre world the people who did their best to get a program of political and economic redistribution implemented - against all the odds - are the ones who should be condemned but the people who voted for the clique of Bullingdon conmen to run the country are not to blame at all for the 100% predicable outcome of their actions?

I have no modus operandi, I retired from politics in December 2019 when it became obvious that this country is fucked beyond repair.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
Yet in your bizarre world the people who did their best to get a program of political and economic redistribution implemented - against all the odds - are the ones who should be condemned but the people who voted for the clique of Bullingdon conmen to run the country are not to blame at all for the 100% predicable outcome of their actions?

I have no modus operandi, I retired from politics in December 2019 when it became obvious that this country is fucked beyond repair.
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the current government have done their best to get an ambitious programme of political and economic redistribution implemented but you never recognise their accomplishments in that field.
 
SHOCKED I tell you... the company set up by conservative Nadhim Zahawi, turns out to doctor its results to show his party in a better light. Who could have seen that one coming.

They stink as a company anyway and their results are not to be trusted. Could they be deliberately biased? who knows...
 
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