IWCA exasperated with mainstream politics
- Thread starter sihhi
- Start date
Go take a look at the childish drivel you've posted on the previous page, in response to a considered reply to yourself, before you start making a further twat of yourself.
You're getting to sound like a thick adolescent.
I haven't asked you to keep on making the same point, despite it continually being refuted.
Have you been eating lots of sugary food lately?
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
But that didn't happen. Hads aren't a lot of good when it comes down to it. After well over a decade people wouldn't, or couldn't do this. This is a pretty fundamental flaw.
And I'll say again that there is no relish whatsover, in fact, it's the oppositie, and it is sadness rather than happiness about a pro-working class method failing and not much else being around, but thanks for the psychology lesson. Although agree about the football analogy about certain fans
, but can assure you I'm not one of them.But if you want to keep on repeating that, feel free. But we have to learn lessons and work out what went wrong, whether that be the method itself, the point we are in in history or something else, because otherwise it will be more of going round in circles, something is rightly always said about the far left.
As for the far left of course they will be vociferous about something else being tried because it's a threat to their insular political existance, although why day to day existance doesn't make that point to them is often beyond me, I suspect it's because too much of their notion of self worth is wrapped up in not being able to admit what they are doing is a waste of time. Heh, theres my psychology lesson for the day. But I don't think benchmarking the IWCA against the far left, or even mentioning them, is really worth it.
Although agree with you on every point about the problems, very real and big problems, facing any pro-working class project, and sadly those very same problems seem to be getting worse.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Anyway interesting debate on PREVENT at the Oxford Council meeting
but they did move on .. in oxford from one to two then to threee wards. In Hackney from one to two etc. It was as simple strategy that worked. And was no more work than any other intense programme that any union steward or anti-deportation activist might have.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Well, yes. And then they went back to one ward and then they disappeared in Hackney altogether and have stalled and retreated somewhat in Oxford and have disappeared altogether from the other half dozen places they've tried.
the questionnaire/survey is of massive ideological importance and that you can not see this shows. It says sometihng entirely different form the Left. It simply inverts Leftism, turns that alienated politics on it's head. It says to people we are not preaching at you, we are not telling you, we are not patronising you, but we are coming to you as equals to try to do something together. teh amount of times I has people say that no one had ever asked them what they thought before sums it up, and before you say thats waht opinion pollsters do, no it is very different in the context of local campaigning
like anyone with any common sense they realised after all these years that you can not build a mass movement in england based on single issues ( anti-fascism) or international solidarity (IRSP etc) .. the path of the IWCA from the IS via RA is just as important as where they arrived
quite simply, and fundamentaly and significantly, that IF you take the approach they took you can start to build working class control in working class areas. That this is regarded so insignificantly by the Left damns them, and damns them to perpetual marginality and irrelevance
the democratic structure in the IWCA was better than most Left groups. There were personality issues that imho made those structures not work as they should have done but while of relevance to the demise of the IWCA have absolutely NO relevance as to the model they propagated.
bingo but not the whole story .. these can take an enormous amount of work BUT you can drop out of you want. what IWCA suggested was a real community politics where people do real politics on their doorstep so you never ever really drop out
I think you are wrong. The politics was a genuine attempt to break form that .. it did not always happen but was genuine
nigel we are quite visible in Hackney being involved with Hackney Solidarity Network ( which your SP comrades have occasionally supported) which produces a 5000 circulation paper. (we decided that socialism in one ward was not possible!) The website is still there though not regularly updated and we are all still active in local politics, though yes there will be no electoral challange this year to the bizarre New Labour(Jonathon McShane) /Trotskyist entryist (Barry Buitekant) alliance that currently holds Haggerston.
ok this is some thoughts on HI
what worked;
- the door to door - exhilarating at times ( talking to people you would never otherewise have spoken to, hearing stories you would never otherwise have heard) but yes tiring at times and a long term commitment
- the survey - going to people and asking questions about what concerns them and what their priorities are is etnirely different from canvassing support to a programme that every other left group does- the reaction is also entirely different and almost always more frieendly, more reactive, more interesting and more uplifting
- things like kids cinema ( though is that just social service?)
- and it nearly got Cllrs, though where that would have led is another matter but politics is a series of trial and errors
what went wrong that was our fault;
- failure to recruit locally; as TB quite correctly notes we stayed within the form of the leftist activist outfit. we quite literally forgot we needed to recruit ( though that was partly from some comrades having an aversion to 'recruitment' havig spent years in the Left) and so ended up not only doing all the work, but when the security doors went on we did not have enough people who could have taken on doing their blocks.
- failure to develop open ward meetings, something that was top of our list but never got done
- failure to develop a social politics, regular BBQs, film and music nights and away days etc ( we did some but not enough)
not our fault;
- door entry systems- actually one key problem was we were too successful on one level. a key demand that we supported and pushed everywhere was for security doors ( e.g. in hoxton where the 'nighttime economy' meant piss all over ther stairs) . in 2010 pretty weel every block has security doors and in some tower blocks, on every landing. this simply made distribution virtually impossible. In many tower blocks concierges simply refused us access. that didn;lt bother other parties as they only appearred at election time when access was allowed.
- the Labour Party identified us a their number one threat in Shoreditch and threw everything at us; during elections they bussed people in from over the whole of the south east ( I personally chatted with a Labour activist from i think Maidstone who barely knew where she was or why but had been told it was a key challenge to Labour) - they told lies to voters about what they could deliver ( migrant families being told they would get new bigger flats if they voted Labour), that we were against migrants, that a vote for us would lose Labour the Council and the Tories would get in etc etc
- ignorance of the Left; anti-community politics Leftism ( and sectrarianism) holds a hegomonic grip over british politics and not one member of any other other group, hundreds of whom lived and worked in Shorditch and the surrounding area, showed any interest let alone got involved.
I think HI is a very important guide to what we need to look at for the future. There is no escape that to change the world you need to start where you live, with your family and neighbours. When ever the Left does this, whether in Preston (respect) , Lewisham (sp) , Dublin (swp) or Oxford (iwca) let alone the turkish or other migrnat communities, that strategy is successful. YET the Left continue to ignore it as a rule and forever fly away on this or that whim/campaign
And here in lies part of the problem. The Left have become rootless, isolated and marginal. How could they carry out this strategy? So maybe then we need a major look as IWCA did back then entirely at how we carry out politics?
what worked;
- the door to door - exhilarating at times ( talking to people you would never otherewise have spoken to, hearing stories you would never otherwise have heard) but yes tiring at times and a long term commitment
- the survey - going to people and asking questions about what concerns them and what their priorities are is etnirely different from canvassing support to a programme that every other left group does- the reaction is also entirely different and almost always more frieendly, more reactive, more interesting and more uplifting
- things like kids cinema ( though is that just social service?)
- and it nearly got Cllrs, though where that would have led is another matter but politics is a series of trial and errors
what went wrong that was our fault;
- failure to recruit locally; as TB quite correctly notes we stayed within the form of the leftist activist outfit. we quite literally forgot we needed to recruit ( though that was partly from some comrades having an aversion to 'recruitment' havig spent years in the Left) and so ended up not only doing all the work, but when the security doors went on we did not have enough people who could have taken on doing their blocks.
- failure to develop open ward meetings, something that was top of our list but never got done
- failure to develop a social politics, regular BBQs, film and music nights and away days etc ( we did some but not enough)
not our fault;
- door entry systems- actually one key problem was we were too successful on one level. a key demand that we supported and pushed everywhere was for security doors ( e.g. in hoxton where the 'nighttime economy' meant piss all over ther stairs) . in 2010 pretty weel every block has security doors and in some tower blocks, on every landing. this simply made distribution virtually impossible. In many tower blocks concierges simply refused us access. that didn;lt bother other parties as they only appearred at election time when access was allowed.
- the Labour Party identified us a their number one threat in Shoreditch and threw everything at us; during elections they bussed people in from over the whole of the south east ( I personally chatted with a Labour activist from i think Maidstone who barely knew where she was or why but had been told it was a key challenge to Labour) - they told lies to voters about what they could deliver ( migrant families being told they would get new bigger flats if they voted Labour), that we were against migrants, that a vote for us would lose Labour the Council and the Tories would get in etc etc
- ignorance of the Left; anti-community politics Leftism ( and sectrarianism) holds a hegomonic grip over british politics and not one member of any other other group, hundreds of whom lived and worked in Shorditch and the surrounding area, showed any interest let alone got involved.
I think HI is a very important guide to what we need to look at for the future. There is no escape that to change the world you need to start where you live, with your family and neighbours. When ever the Left does this, whether in Preston (respect) , Lewisham (sp) , Dublin (swp) or Oxford (iwca) let alone the turkish or other migrnat communities, that strategy is successful. YET the Left continue to ignore it as a rule and forever fly away on this or that whim/campaign
And here in lies part of the problem. The Left have become rootless, isolated and marginal. How could they carry out this strategy? So maybe then we need a major look as IWCA did back then entirely at how we carry out politics?
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Not the main reason to do it, but if local community campaigns and pro-working class groups make links with workers through the local union branches, even this kind of thing can be overcome by i) making links with workers such as the concierge staff and ii) being provided with override fobs that can get you in all the blocks.
That was one of the massive problems with the IWCA, it made no serious attempts with the unions.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Face it, the far left aren't going to change. So if any model requires that to happen you might as well not bother at all. Also there are only a few thousand people involved in far left groups in the whole country, so the idea that there are a few hundred of them in and around Shoreditch is a total nonsense.
I would be the first to admit that Hackney Independent did a lot of work in Haggerston. That is why we took their threat seriously.
But what Durruti02 says above is bizarre. We did have some help from Labour Party members from outside Haggerston. But given that we were a very marginal ward (that nearly elected a IWCA councillor in 2002) thats hardly surprising. But the help was minimal. The vast majority of canvassing and leafleting was done by the candiates themselves.
The remarks about door entry systems are absurd. These security doors exist not just in Haggerston but all over Hackney. They were installed as part of a planned programme- in Haggerston, very little if anything to do with pressure from Hackney Independent. We dont have any keys or fobs to get into the blocks or in some blocks on individual floors. We have to ask residents to let us in. Its annoying that we no longer can get into the blocks right away and its time consuming. But you just have to be patient and persist. And if you dont get in the first time you have to go back. The way Durruti02 talks you would think that here are dozens of tower blocks with concierges. There are just 3 in Haggerston. I just do not believe that the door entry problem is as serious as Durruti02 says its is. I think that HI realised shortly after the 2006 elections that they no longer had any chance to be elected in 2010 and simply faded away.
To say that we offered migrants larger flats if they voted Labour is just laughable. In the 4 years since the election not one single Labour voter has asked us where their promised new larger flat is!
What Durruti02 dosent tell you above is that their campaign was holed when one of their candidates openly advocated a vote for the Tories in the Hackney Mayoral election. This from a group that advocated independent working class action. By the way whatever happened to Arthur?
As for the hundreds of members of left wing groups who live and work in Shoreditch or in the surrounding area I think they are mainly a figment of Durruti02s imagination. Certainly in Haggerston I can only think of one such person who lives in the ward- a member of the Commune group and one other person who works in the ward. Who also happens to be in the Commune group.
As for the effectiveness of the work done by the Haggerston councillors in the last 4 years the mainly working class voters in Haggerston will judge us on Thursday. I will let you know what happens.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
To try to achieve what?
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Get key fobs
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Come on BarryC, altogether now, VOTE LABOUR, VOTE LABOUR!!
Haggerston (Hackney) election result:
Labour 2380, 2237 (me), 2198
Lib Dem 1272, 1121, 808
Con 785, 764, 756
Green 706
Majority 926 (2006 majority 319)
Sean
Well-Known Member
Wow Barry, you really are the bestest. Will you be running for Labour leader when Gordon goes? Can I become a Facebook friend?
So why don't you annekissed sorts do this then?
Wow Barry, you really are the bestest. Will you be running for Labour leader when Gordon goes? Can I become a Facebook friend?
You can be my friend anytime
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