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Islam and suicidal terrorism:Analysing connections

Ha, ha, ha, I probably know more about the topic than you guys. I think I have looked through most of the stuff given out by all sides, yea, bullshit and all! I have looked into the two versions of Mohammed's life and times. I suspect that too many Islamists have not! As my old Decision Making Prof commented after giving me a good mark for one of my assignments, "You are obviously capable of complex thought and analysis".

From the Kuwait Times, dated 26th Feb 2006


Islam's 'ultimate battles' on horizon in Muslim heartland

This is the final story in a series examining the fault lines within Islam between the forces of moderation and extremism. That split shook America to its core on Sept. 11, 2001, and is now one of the defining conflicts of our era. Across the Muslim world, there's an added anguish for the future: mounting bloodshed as the clashes take on the hallmarks of civil war.

A giant montage of artwork hangs outside one of the hotels hit by suicide bombers last month. The images include tears for the 60 victims and clenched fists to honor the anti-terrorism marches that have set the standard for Arab rage against Al-Qaeda and the offshoots it inspired.
But the most repeated theme of the drawings at the Radisson SAS is a penetrating question: why? The pictures ask: Why us? Why are Muslims killing Muslims? Well before the triple Nov. 9 attacks in Amman, this line was already chiseled into the epitaph of 2005.
The ideological wars between mainstream Islam and its radical fringe have turned inward.

While the West snaps to attention when bloodshed hits home -- most recently in July's London bombings -- there was an even greater toll within the Muslim world in the past year. It includes gunbattles in Saudi Arabia between extremists and government forces, another wave of blasts at resorts in Egypt and Indonesia, the Amman attacks -- whose carnage included a wedding party -- and bombings in Bangladesh blamed on rebels seeking strict Islamic rule. Terrorist cells and militants insist that ordinary Muslims have nothing to fear. The numbers say otherwise. More than 170 civilians were killed this year in attacks by Islamic radicals in Muslim nations outside of Iraq, while Associated Press reporting shows that at least 4,700 Iraqis have been killed since late April alone -- many in extremist-led attacks.
Many experts believe this points to the Islam's next major evolution as it struggles to adapt to the globalized age: bigger and more decisive showdowns in the Muslim heartlands.

"I fear this type of Muslim-on-Muslim violence is the sign of the future," said Abdulmajead Salahin, the dean of the Islamic law department at Jordan University. Some of that turmoil, he believes, will come as payback when moderate Muslims retaliate. "Ordinary Muslims are growing tired of seeing their faith corrupted by radical criminals," he said. "They want to fight back. They want their governments to fight back.

"This is the only way that radicalism can be defeated. It can't come from the outside. Not America or Europe. Islam must fight within itself before it can heal itself." By every objective measure _ the weight of Muslim public opinion, available resources and mounting pressure from authorities -- radical Islam appears to have less and less breathing room. And yet the extremists seem as powerful as ever, and certainly as lethal.

They draw strength and recruits from a resolve that moderates have found difficult to match. To some Muslims -- especially those convinced that Islam is under threat from the West -- there's a compelling bravado from radical clerics and militants who portray themselves as the self-appointed guardians of the faith. They preach about returning to Islam's glory days, such as a pan-Islamic caliphate, or theocratic empire uniting the Middle East and beyond. The West and its allies are described as being part of the "dar al-harb," or territory of war, against Islam. Even the modern nation-state is often scorned as a Western-imposed map that artificially divides Muslims.
Statements attributed to Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi -- leader of Al-Qaida in Iraq and alleged mastermind of the Amman bombings -- have claimed a God-given duty to kill "infidels" and warned of more attacks in his homeland of Jordan.
"The so-called clash of civilizations is really, at the end of the day, a clash within Islam," said Enes Karic, dean of the school of Islamic studies at the University of Sarajevo. "This is where the ultimate battles must be fought." It's moving in that direction.

Pro-Western governments such as Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states are applying more pressure on radical Islam after many years of indulgent policies -- essentially turning a blind eye to radical strains as long as their targets were abroad.

On Dec. 8, leaders from more than 50 Muslim nations meeting in Mecca, Saudi Arabia -- Islam's most holy city -- agreed in principle to impose harsher criminal penalties for "financing and incitement" of extremist ideas. They also pledged to fight radical "fatwas," or Islamic religious edicts, that justify hatred or killings, particularly against other Muslims. The promised clampdowns mean that militant factions will forced to either surrender or, more likely, strike back, Karic said. The average Muslim is caught in the middle. "It's no longer some faraway thing like Sept. 11," he said. "It's in their everyday lives." And the more angry and active the Islamic public becomes -- like the protest marches in Jordan -- the more radicals are backed into corners in their own nations. In the short term, this could bring more backlash. But some experts believe it also could ultimately subject Islam's militant factions to greater doubts and defections. "No matter now sweet the stories of (the) revival of the caliph and the caliphate may sound to Muslim ears, we must be aware of the fact that in fighting the battles that are already lost, (Islamic radicals) are showing the greatest possible insanity," he said last month at an Islamic conference in Vienna, Austria.
But not all consider extremists so easily beaten. The past year offered a running commentary on the resilience of Islamic militants, and their abilities to strike on home ground.

The most recent front is Bangladesh, where more than 20 people were killed in a spate of bombings since late November blamed on the outlawed Jumatul Mujahideen Bangladesh, which seeks to replace the country's secular laws with Islamic rules.

The other attacks bounced around the Muslim world. Egypt:
Car bombs in July killed at least 64 people at the Sinai resort of Sharm el-Sheik. Indonesia: Three suicide bombers with alleged linked to an Al-Qaeda backed group killed 20 people on the resort island of Bali in October. Then the blasts in Amman in November.

The concept of waging violent jihad both at home and abroad is not a new one. As far back as the 1950s, the Egyptian-born radical ideologue Sayyid Qutb was refining the idea of two foes: the "far" enemy of America and its backers, and the "near" enemy of Muslim leaders and others who oppose their austere interpretations of strict Islam and "sharia," or Islamic law. Qutb's writings became part of the intellectual foundations for Osama bin Laden. Qutb, who was hanged by Egyptian authorities in 1966, also helped harden the contemporary views of the Muslim Brotherhood, the oldest and largest conservative Islamic movement and a growing force in Egyptian politics.
The grand mufti of Syria, Ahmad Bader Hassoun, offered a bleak depiction of what could come next without a serious effort to counter the spread of extremist creeds in mosques, Quranic groups and on the Internet. He told the Vienna gathering that Islam could develop "a kind of religious Marxism or Leninism" capable of overwhelming moderate voices and opening new assaults against perceived enemies _ particularly in Muslim nations. "We have to break down the wall, like how it was demolished in Berlin," he said.
Jordan, for the moment, appears willing to lead the way. The aftermath of the bombings brought something nearly as stunning to the Muslim world: major street demonstrations _ both government-arranged and independent _ that seethed with disgust against the concept of violent jihad. The crowds waved Jordanian flags and ridiculed Zarqawi as a villain and coward. One banner called Zarqawi "an enemy of God." The largest march was estimated at 100,000 people _ surpassing the anti-American rallies before the 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq.
 
Kuwait Times article contd.


"When someone blows up an American tank in Iraq, I salute them," said Hamzeh Mansour, general-secretary of the Islamic Action Front Party, which has 17 seats in Jordan's 110-member parliament. "But this is not legitimate resistance, it's murder of innocent people, innocent Muslims. The strong reaction from the Jordanian people is a message to Muslims everywhere that these kinds of actions are unacceptable." Zarqawi's own clan, the influential Bani Hassan tribe of Jordan, disowned him and proclaimed loyalty to King Abdullah II in full-page letters published in Jordanian newspapers. The blow was particularly painful since being a family outcast is one of the harshest stigmas in Arab society.

Abdullah ordered the government to launch a "relentless" war on Islamic militancy. The country's new religious affairs minister said all of Jordan's 3,600 clerics and Friday prayer leaders will be required to closely follow the "Amman Message," a declaration issued by Jordan last year that calls on the world's 1.2 billion Muslims to condemn the "despotic" grip of terrorism and the "abyss of extremism." For weeks, mourners lit candles and laid flowers for the victims, nearly all local Muslims: 39 at the Radisson, including 30 people attending a Jordanian-Palestinian wedding; and 18 at the Grand Hyatt. Three Chinese military envoys were also killed outside the Days Inn by a suicide bomber who fled through the main entrance after his explosives failed to detonate inside the lobby restaurant. Two days after the explosions -- with bits of human flesh still splattered against the cream-colored stone at the Days Inn -- the hotel hosted a wedding reception.
"I felt like I was the groom," said general manager Khaled Abu Ghoush. "We danced. We showed we will not bow down to terror. I call these people the spirit of the devil. A criminal can still be called a human being. The people who did this cannot." -- AP
 
Please post comments in this thread

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sh...ad.php?t=152746

Some short comment on your remarks as posted here:
1. when I compared with Christianity, I compared with Christianity TODAY.
2. Reputable sources? You want me to ask all who say that to me to come here and give testimony? (And by the way... Did you ever read US Made message boards?)
3. No, you claimed that the USA and its policies (both political and economical) have nothing to do with it.

salaam.


1, Did you change the original post, I felt the first time I read it that it was implying that it was an 'unknown' to Western Society, which it clearly isn't. Tho re-reading it now it doesn't have that same feeling.

2, You are talking about personal experience? Then I don't think you can call that 'a slogan' that you hear regularly in the West. You can say its a slogan YOU have heard regularly in the west, but unless you have some sort of PUBLIC announcement of it somewhere, then it could just be you, cause I not heard it at all.

3, Which it doesn't.

Look, if you have 100 reasons to attack me, and I get rid of 99 of them, you still have a reason to attack me don't you?

You only need one reason. So it does not matter if they sell arms to israel or interfere. Since if they did or they did not, they would still come under fire.
 
Here is some blurb on the long running issues and violence between Sunni and Shiite:

Islam remains rooted in its history of deep mistrust between the Shiite and Sunni sects, which, since the 8th century, have been violently feuding over the issue of succession to the Prophet Muhammad. The past 1,300 years of Islamic history have been almost uniformly marked by episodes of strife between these two sects, and political domination by one group has almost always meant persecution of the other.

For example, when the Shiite Safavids came to power in Iran in the 16th century, they brutalized the country's Sunnis. The mullahs who took charge in Iran with the 1979 Islamic revolution gladly continue this tradition today. In Saudi Arabia, the opposite is true: The Sunni fundamentalist Wahhabis have turned the country into a prison camp for its Shiite minority since they ascended to power in the 19th century. In Saddam Hussein's Iraq, the secularist Baath Party, ruled by the Sunni minority, oppressed the country's Shiite majority for three decades.

The legacy of this history of persecution is that Sunni and Shiite Muslims in the Middle East view each other with distrust. In most cases, mutual hatred is almost as deeply rooted as any aversion they may have towards non-Muslims.

What does this mean for Operation Iraqi Freedom? With the exception of Iran and Syria (which is ruled by an Alawite minority--an offshoot of Islam distinct from both Sunni and Shiite orthodoxies, if somewhat closer to Shiism) all Muslim states in the Middle East are run by Sunnis, who view a Shiite-ruled Iraq as a potential threat. (The only exception to such authoritarian regimes, Turkey--which is democratic--is also a Sunni majority country.) The Sunni states of the Middle East are unwilling to whole-heartedly support Operation Iraqi Freedom because of what it may produce in the end.

This predicament can also be helpful, however, by showing a way out of sectarian hatred within Islam. It is time now for Muslims--clerics and secular pundits alike--to begin a frank debate towards healing sectarian divides through ecumenical dialogue.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC06.php?CID=385

ps. Fong - Your thread reference comes up 'NOT FOUND'.

pps. 'El' refers to male and 'Al' refers to female

As in Elat (the Israeli Red Sea resort), and Al-'Uzza, al-Lat who along with Manah, are supposed to be the three daughters of Allah the Moon God.
Elat probably is a masculinising of al-Lat.
 
The Anthropology of Religion

FruitandNut said:
pps. 'El' refers to male and 'Al' refers to female
No. They're equivalent. One Hebrew, one Arabic. Aramaic is similar too, more similar in fact to Allah than El being Alaha. They are all the same name for the same patriarchal creator G-d in three related semitic languages.
As in Elat (the Israeli Red Sea resort), and Al-'Uzza, al-Lat who along with Manah, are supposed to be the three daughters of Allah the Moon God.
No. Elat is equivalent of Alat. One is in Hebrew. One is in Arabic.
Elat probably is a masculinising of al-Lat.
NO. Elat is female. Alat is female. They can be considered a young femine aspect of G-d (daughter?). Originally from Bronze age Canaanite/Ugaritic pantheon which encompassed a large territory incl. Levant Canaan, Assyria, Judea/Samaria, Mesopotamia, Arabia etc. ) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(god)
patroberston_2005-08-24.jpg


Please note: these are ancient, pre-Monotheistic G0ds from before both Judaism and Islam were formed.
 
The trend of suicide bombings actually arrived with groups like the Black Hand (Ujedinjenje ili smrt) and the Nihilists. The Tamil Tigers then took up the idea when they killed Soloman West Ridgeway Bandaranaike in the 1950's...the Tigers have used that method ever since.

This is not a phenomenon that is unique to Islam as many people like to suggest.
 
tangentlama - Al-, al-, el- or ul-, Its equivalent in English is "The" adjective. The adjective "el" is also shared and used widely by Latin-based languages such as Spanish. Used before singular or plural nouns and noun phrases that denote particular, specified persons or things. But having said that, el or El is the preferred adjective when referring to a male, and al or Al when referring to females and things.
 
you obviously have no knowledge of Canaanite/Ugaritic deities (and these 'names' are PROPER NOUNS not ADJECTIVES).

Elat/Alat is FEMALE GODDESS from pre-monotheistic Canaan and other adjoining areas. Solomon probably had a statue to her in his temple.

Do you have a problem with the polytheistic origins of Judaism and Christianity, as well as those which you obviously have with Islam?
 
FruitandNut said:
Kuwait Times article contd.


"When someone blows up an American tank in Iraq, I salute them," said Hamzeh Mansour, general-secretary of the Islamic Action Front Party, which has 17 seats in Jordan's 110-member parliament. "But this is not legitimate resistance, it's murder of innocent people, innocent Muslims. The strong reaction from the Jordanian people is a message to Muslims everywhere that these kinds of actions are unacceptable." Zarqawi's own clan, the influential Bani Hassan tribe of Jordan, disowned him and proclaimed loyalty to King Abdullah II in full-page letters published in Jordanian newspapers. The blow was particularly painful since being a family outcast is one of the harshest stigmas in Arab society.

Abdullah ordered the government to launch a "relentless" war on Islamic militancy. The country's new religious affairs minister said all of Jordan's 3,600 clerics and Friday prayer leaders will be required to closely follow the "Amman Message," a declaration issued by Jordan last year that calls on the world's 1.2 billion Muslims to condemn the "despotic" grip of terrorism and the "abyss of extremism." For weeks, mourners lit candles and laid flowers for the victims, nearly all local Muslims: 39 at the Radisson, including 30 people attending a Jordanian-Palestinian wedding; and 18 at the Grand Hyatt. Three Chinese military envoys were also killed outside the Days Inn by a suicide bomber who fled through the main entrance after his explosives failed to detonate inside the lobby restaurant. Two days after the explosions -- with bits of human flesh still splattered against the cream-colored stone at the Days Inn -- the hotel hosted a wedding reception.
"I felt like I was the groom," said general manager Khaled Abu Ghoush. "We danced. We showed we will not bow down to terror. I call these people the spirit of the devil. A criminal can still be called a human being. The people who did this cannot." -- AP

Lots of cut and paste here, boyo.
 
oi2002 said:
I would say fundamentalist is an entirely accurate description of Islamic fringes like the Salafi who as you say seek a return to the 7th century and also ignore deep traditions and the constructions of the Hadith. I find them almost indistinguishable from the wilder fringes of fanatical Calvinism I grew up with, which also represents a clear perversion of scripture.
“Fundamentalist” as it is understood in the West, mainly influenced by the US understanding of the word in purely Christian context, can’t be applied in an Islamic context. It is a definition invented to describe typical Christian reasoning only. Using it outside that context only causes further confusion.
The more pertinent issues are whether the slaughter of the defenceless and unarmed can be justified based on scripture if not decency. Killing the innocent has been routine in warfare since it began but is the duty to defend the faith being corrupted? I obviously think it is but my knowlege is superficial. Where do you stand on this?
I stand where Al Qur’an, its exegeses and Islamic theology stand on it: wounding or killing those who do not start - and engage in - warfare must be avoided whenever that is humanly possible since it is prohibited to wound or kill the innocent.
banjo said:
I note you mention Qutb as an influence but I would be interested to learn your views on Abdullah Azzam.
I didn’t read the work you mention. Yet just like others who promote their theories and try to underscore/ justify them, he has no justifiable theological ground to stand on with his suggestions. I would have to see where he refers to and his interpretation to be able to point out where it deviates from what is intended.
By the way, I would take issue with calling them "radical muslims", I would call them "conservative muslims". Radical is when you break away from the central theme, conservative is when you try to get closer to it. These people aren't radical, they're conservative. They do a disservice to the word "radical".
No, they are not “conservative”, that is one of the great misunderstandings in the West, actually. Nothing of what they promote can be found in genuine Islam.
mellowmoose said:
In other words there should be no clerical hierarchy.
There isn’t any such established hierarchy in Sunni Islam.
To give an example: Al Azhar is today still regarded as the leading university/institution and its Grand Sheikh as the leading authority in Sunni Islam, but there is no obligation for any Muslim to follow its advice or rulings.
That is why I feel I should add a chapter about “authority”. The lack of such a structure, which is inherent to Sunni Islam and especially since the disappearance of the Caliphate, is one of the problems that makes it for any Radical fairly easy to start writing no matter what. Others can and will argue against this but as long his target group buys it his goal is reached.
Shia Islam recognises a structured religious hierarchy but it is a misunderstanding (also among Sunni Muslims and maybe even among Shia) that this comes in combination with “infallibility”.
oi2002 said:
He does not say that Islam makes no contribution to the tactic's popularity in the ME just that this has been greatly overstated.
In fact one must separate the tactic completely from Islam. It is just an adaptation to a situation where a "Jihad" is waged against an enemy who can't be fought within the context of conventional war and its methods.
When you then in addition proclaim such "warriors" to the status of “martyrdom”, you create the connection with Islam's historical tradition to proclaim “martyr” everyone who falls on the battleground for “On the way of Allah”.

I referred briefly to the so called “Assassins” (most probably the term was an invention of the Sunni Muslims at the time) to point out the difference in both the methods and the goals of this group and today’s “suicide bombers”. Suicide was not the goal for the Assassins but sometimes a consequence and indiscriminating murder of civilians was not a goal either.
Interestingly the French press use the elegant term Kamikaze for a suicide bombers. Four years after 9-11 I've yet to see a Yank journalist make this imaginative connection, which is odd as it was Yanks who had planes flying into them. Perhaps their proprietors fear to offend powerful Tokyo.
Yes, I see that too, but in my opinion that is because it is a convenient word to use, also seen the fact it is still so widely known, understood and used in European history classes.
FruitandNut said:
[The Koran] says it is the duty of Muslims to bring terror to the enemy, so being a terrorist makes me a good Muslim." He quotes lines from the surah known as Al-Anfal, or the Spoils of War: "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy."...
That would be Sura 8:60.
And that would be an example of not only defective translation but completely missing the point and context of the verse too.
The historical context is the battle of Badr against the Meccans.(march 624AD) This verse describes how to instil fear into the enemy even before the fight starts, by gathering all means (weapons, horses) and men available to confront the enemies which are the enemies of God, and also those enemies you don’t see yet ( but who might follow) but who are known by God.

To make from that the giant step to terrorism aimed at non-combatants asks for some vivid imagination.
I suppose you belong to the camp that paints every Iraqi who fights the invaders of his nation a “terrorist”?
The reason why Isam spread so rapidly was because Muslims bore little fear of death in battle against the Infidel. Waves of determined and focussed 'suicide' attacks happened from the earliest days etc… etc….
You clearly have some substantial gaps in your education about Islamic History.
Same counts for your wishful thinking while giving your own personal exegeses of Al Qur’an (thank you for that, a refreshing new insight).
Ha, ha, ha, I probably know more about the topic than you guys. I think I have looked through most of the stuff given out by all sides, yea, bullshit and all! I have looked into the two versions of Mohammed's life and times etc… etc….
I suppose that is aimed at making some impression on me?
Which “the two versions “ did you read, actually? Really, you “looked through most of the stuff given out by all sides” ?? You must be older the Methusalem to be able to do so. Is that where your knowledge about what “Islamists” (note: a rather recent Western term) “have” or “have not” comes from too ?
yea, bullshit and all!
Not a language I would use, but nevertheless… I suppose it can’t be said better.
Now please tell me what the article you copy and pasted brings along that I didn’t mention in my short analysis? (and I thought “copy and paste” was not allowed here? Why else couldn’t I even post my own little piece and hence had to set up a silly “blog” only and especially to make it accessible for the members here???)
. "Ordinary Muslims are growing tired of seeing their faith corrupted by radical criminals," he said. "They want to fight back. They want their governments to fight back.
You can’t make that up from what I wrote? And again a long cut and paste work in a thread from which I was told I could not even post my opening post in full?
Fong said:
1, Did you change the original post, I felt the first time I read it that it was implying that it was an 'unknown' to Western Society, which it clearly isn't. Tho re-reading it now it doesn't have that same feeling.
I felt lucky enough to get it posted there. I didn’t change one letter afterwards.
2, You are talking about personal experience? Then I don't think you can call that 'a slogan' that you hear regularly in the West. You can say its a slogan YOU have heard regularly in the west, but unless you have some sort of PUBLIC announcement of it somewhere, then it could just be you, cause I not heard it at all.
* I hear or see it regularly, in one form or an other, everywhere I go in Europe.
* Over time it regularly showed up in European media, which I can read.
* If you read US message boards it stares at you regularly, which until recently I did see.
* At least one member here posted he sees it too in some of the media he reads.
By all this it can be worded differently (or be insinuated with other words) and that doesn’t change the clear and implied intention.
I can’t be responsible for it that you don’t see or hear it, can I?
You only need one reason. So it does not matter if they sell arms to israel or interfere. Since if they did or they did not, they would still come under fire.
I think you could maybe re-read the whole thing I posted, since the reason I wrote it is to explain how and why “one reason” was and is not enough to trigger all the events and reactions we witness these days.

salaam.
 
A little note to the writer of The Urban75Forum Grammar of Classical and Modern Standard Arabic:

1. “el” and “al” is exactly the same = the definite particle. Pronounced like something that sounds like between 'al and 'el. Your attempts to claim there would be a "gender difference" in "the way it is written" betrays you have no clue. There is not even a written "e" in the alphabet (and no capitals either).
2. To make a masculine into feminine you don’t change (the spoken sound of) the definite particle (that would give some very funny options though, thank you for the idea), you simply put the feminine ending at the end of the word.

We were talking about that little thing I posted on that LiveJournal, remember? (= not Arabic, not Islamic History, not the origin of pre-islamic deities or the ethymology of their names.)

salaam
 
Altruism gone awry?

Aldebaran said:
In fact one must separate the tactic completely from Islam. It is just an adaptation to a situation where a "Jihad" is waged against an enemy who can't be fought within the context of conventional war and its methods.
When you then in addition proclaim such "warriors" to the status of “martyrdom”, you create the connection with Islam's historical tradition to proclaim “martyr” everyone who falls on the battleground for “On the way of Allah”.

salaam.

the culture of martyrdom isn't peculiar to Islam though. all religions share in this culture of self-sacrifice, from saints sacrificed at the altar of old religions to warriors enshrined forever as the Deliverer of their people to aged monks eating posionous berries before climbing into a mountain caves to meet death head-on.

I've read some cracking stuff from Baruch Kimmerling on the matter, but what can you recommend about the equiv. in Arabic/Islamic culture of martyrdom?

Acts of martyrdom have been found in nearly all the worlds major religious traditions. Though considered by devotees to be perhaps the most potent expression of religious faith, dying for ones god is also one of the most difficult concepts for modern observers of religion to understand. This is especially true in the West, where martyrdom has all but disappeared and martyrs in other cultures are often viewed skeptically and dismissed as fanatics. This book seeks to foster a greater understanding of these acts of religious devotion by explaining how martyrdom has historically been viewed in the worlds major religions. It provides the first sustained, cross-cultural examination of this fascinating aspect of religious life. Margaret Cormack begins with an introduction that sets out a definition of martyrdom that serves as the point of departure for the rest of the volume. Then, scholars of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Islam examine martyrdom in specific religious cultures. Spanning 4000 years of history and ranging from Saul in the Hebrew Bible to Sati immolations in present-day India, this book provides a wealth of insight into an often noted but rarely understood cultural phenomenon.
from Sacrificing the Self
Perspectives in Martyrdom and Religion
Edited by Margaret Cormack

shalom
 
On fudamentalist. This noun has two meanings in English:
1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. 2a. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture. b. Adherence to the theology of this movement.
It's entirely accurate to call Salafi fundamentalist in the first sense. They do seek a return to what they see as the fundamentals of Islam as practiced by the first three generations of Muslims.

There are parallels with austere Protestant sects which rejected a millenia of mainstream Christian tradition which they saw as corrupt and idolatorus in favor of contentious scriptural interpretations but the second meaning is clearly inapproprate. I do suspect few Christians outside the US are aware of it.

Fundamentalist developed a pejorative meaning after the Iranian Revolution when slapped down after Islamic, as code for fanatic or as we'd say on this side of the Atlantic nutter. To describe Khomeni as fundamentalist is a good deal less accurate, Khomeni wasn't going back to the 7th century, Ayatollah rule was a radical innovation not in the twelver tradition of government.

Interestingly the equivalent in French intégriste is even more pejorative and is hurled without any confessional qualifier at Muslims. It was at one point a term applied to Catholics stubbornly opposing the absolutist secularism of Revolutionary France.
 
'We were ready to die for Japan'

Now aged 81, Mr Hamazono said his only regret is that so many of his comrades died. "I live my life now for them, for my wife and for my 11 grandchildren," he added.

He has little time for the notion that the young men who flew into enemy warships did so happily in a selfless display of loyalty for the emperor.

"We said what we supposed to say about the emperor, but we didn't feel it in our hearts," he said. "We were ready to die, but for our families and for Japan. We thought people who talked seriously about wanting to die for the emperor were misguided.

"It was more like a mother who drops everything when her child needs her. That's how the kamikaze felt about their country."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,,1720082,00.html

Tales from days of the Kamikaze...
 
oi2002 said:
This noun has two meanings in English:It's entirely accurate to call Salafi fundamentalist in the first sense. They do seek a return to what they see as the fundamentals of Islam as practiced by the first three generations of Muslims.

No.
This little sect would never have gained any substantial influence if not thanks to the support from first the English and next the USA for the ambitions of ibn saud (who made a very clever use of it and its adherents, yet leading to today's situation where it has grown into a devastating monster poisoning Islam and Muslim minds all over the world).
They practice what they made of Islam. To proclaim such to be "fundamental Islam" comes down to declare that what they propagate = Islam.
That is fundamentally wrong.
What some followers of a religion see as "deviating or corrupt" does not make their version the correct one, is it. For the same money you could claim the Taliban follow "pure Islam".
No thank you.

To describe Khomeni as fundamentalist is a good deal less accurate, Khomeni wasn't going back to the 7th century, Ayatollah rule was a radical innovation not in the twelver tradition of government.

That is an incorrect view. I shall explain this further when I get time to add the chapter on "authority".

Interestingly the equivalent in French intégriste is even more pejorative and is hurled without any confessional qualifier at Muslims. It was at one point a term applied to Catholics stubbornly opposing the absolutist secularism of Revolutionary France.

Not at all. Intégriste is the word used by Northern African Muslims themselves to describe those known as recruiters of young men for the “madrasa” (since Western interpretation this word also received a very negative connotation) in Pakistan = those I place under Radicals.

As it is described in the article you linked to:

C'est l'attitude et disposition d’esprit de certains adeptes du système qui, au nom d’un respect intransigeant de la tradition, souhaitent qu'il reste figé.

Translation: It is the attitude and the mindset of certain followers of a system who, in the name of an intransingent respect of the tradition wish that it would remain fixed.

1. CERTAIN followers
2. in the name of what THEY see as the TRADITION

Fairly correct since that is exactly what they do.

Il faut dire qu'à cause de l'actualité de ces dernières années ce mot est devenu un synonyme de fanatisme dans le vocabulaire courant ce qu'il n'était pas avant. Il faut donc être bien conscient de ce fait et sûr de ce que les gens signifient lorsqu'ils utilisent ce mot.

Translation : It must be said that because of the actuality of these last years this word became a synonym of fanaticism in the usual vocabulary, which was not the case previously. It is thus necessary to be conscious of this fact and to be sure of what people mean when they use this word.

Also correct. Some of the Wahhabis = The ones to be placed under the Radicals, are fanatics when it comes to the interpretation invented and followed by their deviating sect. Not all Radicals are purely Wahhabi and not all Wahhabi are Radicals.

Does not mean any Radical (or even a "normal" Wahhabi Muslim) promotes and follows “the fundaments of Islam”.

salaam.
 
Aldebaran said:
They practice what they made of Islam. To proclaim such to be "fundamental Islam" comes down to declare that what they propagate = Islam. That is fundamentally wrong. What some followers of a religion see as "deviating or corrupt" does not make their version the correct one, is it. For the same money you could claim the Taliban follow "pure Islam".
No thank you.
How does that principle only apply to Islam? I could for instance claim that 'american fundamentalist christians' are not following what the bible says or if I were a catholic I could point out that the catholic church considers those christians who oppose the catholic church as heritics. I'm sure there are buddists, hindus, and others who consider themselves to be following the fundamentals of their own religion and yet other followers of that same religion consider them heritics.

I don't understand why you say that the word 'fundamentalist' cannot apply to followers of islam, or indeed why it should only be used in a christian context where there seems to be as much widespread disagreement about what the 'true' teaching is as there seems to be in islam.

What is your understanding of the word 'fundamentalist' ?

Edit:
Are you saying that those who are called 'islamic fundamentalists' by the west do not deserve that description because in your view they are not following the fundamentals of islam?
In which case would you agree that those you ARE following the teachings of islam are the real 'islamic fundamentalists'?
 
TAE said:
How does that principle only apply to Islam?

You should reverse the question: Why do you claim that a word invented in the USA to serve as description for certain Christians SHOULD apply to Islam? It did not even exist in Arabic.

You can claim whatever you want about Christians who are called "fundamentalist" and agree with the application of that word or not. I can't judge if such Christians deserve or fit that description or not. That is for Christians to decide. Why on earth do you claim you can do so for Muslims?

Are you saying that those who are called 'islamic fundamentalists' by the west do not deserve that description because in your view they are not following the fundamentals of islam?

Again: They follow only what they want to make of it.

In which case would you agree that those you ARE following the teachings of islam are the real 'islamic fundamentalists'?

Again: There is no such thing as "Islamic Fundamentalist".
Again: "Fundamentalist" is a word invented to describe Christians.
Again: Why it was invented and used has nothing to see with Islam.
Again: Islam is not Christianity.

Leads me to a few questions:

1. Why this obsession to push typical Western/Christian concepts onto Islam even when told - repeatedly - that it is impossible?
2. Where am I so unclear in what I wrote in that short analysis that this simple, logical fact still remains so unclear to you?

salaam.
 
I'd agree with some of your comments on Salafi some of whom have done some very strange things with scripture. I'm not sure if this is true, but I read that the official Saudi version of the Koran has had some of the more tolerant passages removed.

In calling them fundamentalist there's no implication that their interpretation of scripture is somehow an accepted escense that alll other Muslims use as a foundation which is how you take it. I don't seek to demonize the Salafi here many of the sects are devout and and peaceful.

On Intégriste I'm not actually sure what your disputing in the French defintion I translate it just as you do. This seems entirely compatable with what I was saying and if you can find it in a French-English dictionary it's rendered as fundamentalist .

More on Intégriste:
Islamism (Islamisme in French) is a term that is rather less used than others, perhaps due to its lack of precision. The following terms are often used : Islamiste (when referring to a person), islamique (for a qualifier, the "hidjab" or foulard islamique, or barbe islamique, the beard), mouvement islamique (to refer to a political movement), mouvement intégriste or mouvement extrémiste (to refer to a fundamentalist group), mouvement terroriste (for a group using violence to achieve its ends).
The French also still use the term in its revolutionary era sense and you'll find pre-revolutionary usages of it in its theological sense. I've heard it most often amongst exiled Algerian Jews who closely equate it with fascism.

Actually if we look at the definition of
fundamentalism it gets more interesting.
2. In other religions. In Islam, the term “fundamentalism” encompasses various modern Muslim leaders, groups, and movements opposed to secularization in Islam and Islamic countries and seeking to reassert traditional beliefs and practices. After the Shiite revolution (1979) led by Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran, the term was applied to a number of ultra-conservative or militant Islamic movements there and in other countries, such as the Taliban of Afghanistan. There are both Shiite and Sunni fundamentalist leaders and groups, such as the Ayatollah Khomeini and the Muslim Brotherhood. The term has also been applied to Hindu nationalist groups in India (see Hinduism; Bharatiya Janata party).

There is a very nice little piece here that also bounces arround intégrisme and the contentious French loan word Islamist.

This I thought got to the escense of the problem with
fundamentalist:
Bernard Lewis, preeminent historian of Islam, made this case against it:

The use of this term is established and must be accepted, but it remains unfortunate and can be misleading. "Fundamentalist" is a Christian term. It seems to have come into use in the early years of this century, and denotes certain Protestant churches and organizations, more particularly those that maintain the literal divine origin and inerrancy of the Bible. In this they oppose the liberal and modernist theologians, who tend to a more critical, historical view of Scripture. Among Muslim theologians there is as yet no such liberal or modernist approach to the Qur'an, and all Muslims, in their attitude to the text of the Qur'an, are in principle at least fundamentalists. Where the so-called Muslim fundamentalists differ from other Muslims and indeed from Christian fundamentalists is in their scholasticism and their legalism. They base themselves not only on the Qur'an, but also on the Traditions of the Prophet, and on the corpus of transmitted theological and legal learning
Not sure about that last sentence holds true I've read a charecteristic of some radicals is a rejection of the even the Hadith. But I read that as saying they desire to live under Sharia, this is a dangerously broad defintion of fundamentalist.

And this:
Ayatollah Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, the spiritual mentor of Hizbullah, was asked by an English-language periodical in 1992 whether he thought fundamentalist or Islamist was more appropriate. Like Ghannushi and Turabi, Fadlallah rejected fundamentalist because of its "violent" associations. But like Madani, he also found Islamist unacceptable. It was a term "used by outsiders to denote a strand of activity which they think justifies their misconception of Islam as something rigid and immobile, a mere tribal affiliation." And his conclusion was identical to Madani's: "Having thought a good deal about this matter, I am satisfied to use the word ‘Muslim,' which includes all the activities carried on within the scope and fold of Islam."[39]

Fadlallah later revised his position, apparently when he learned that Western sympathizers with movements like Hizbullah were promoting the term Islamist. "I object to the word ‘fundamentalism,'" he told the same English-language periodical six months later, "a term which has overtones of exclusivism. I prefer the term ‘Islamist movement,' which indicates a willingness to interact and live harmoniously with other trends of opinion, rather than to exclude them. In the Western perspective, ‘fundamentalism' has implications of violence, and the Islamists have never chosen violence. Rather, violence has been forced upon them."[40]

Fadlallah had taken his cue from foreign friends. But like other so-called Islamists, he was ambivalent about being called one—and with good reason. If Islamism came to be presented by its critics as a deviation from Islam itself, it too could appear pejorative.
Actually the implications of violence Fadlallah sees in the term fundamentalism stems entirely from Khomeni's bloody and as he said himself not particularly Islamic coup after the Iranian revolution.

Mullah Omar of the Taliban and Khomeni can both been called fundamentalists, fascists, authoritarians, radicals and extremists. But even my dissident Iranian neighbor finds the idea laughable that the sophisticated and devious Khomeni shared the Talibans atavistic Salafi agenda.

Fundamentalism has the same problem as all these broad terms which by their nature lump together disparate groups. I'm not sure if radical, which for me has positive connotations is quite as useful as extremist for these guys.
 
I'm not sure if this is true, but I read that the official Saudi version of the Koran has had some of the more tolerant passages removed.

No that is not true. (Some dare to do some other things with the text )

In calling them fundamentalist there's no implication that their interpretation of scripture is somehow an accepted escense that alll other Muslims use as a foundation which is how you take it.

Your definition proposed it as if they “turn back to the fundaments of Islam”. Which they do not.

I didn’t dispute anything about “intégriste” .I said clearly that the definition as proposed on the article you linked to is correct and correctly applied to those who are even called with that name by Muslims themselves and who fall under what I call Radicals.
What an English translation wishes to make of it is besides the question. I’m not interested in how Westerners want to call Muslims of any type. I say the term is incorrect and didn’t even exist formerly in Arabic.

As for Bernard Lewis: I am not a fan of Lewis, especially not when it comes to certain aspects of his approach. Nevertheless he has an extensive and broad knowledge about the subjects of his publications, especially when it comes to target a non-specialized general public.

In the quote you give he is correct about this part. Which is in fact no different then what I said, and he isn’t even a Muslim let alone an Islamic scholar.

…it remains unfortunate and can be misleading. "Fundamentalist" is a Christian term. It seems to have come into use in the early years of this century, and denotes certain Protestant churches and organizations, more particularly those that maintain the literal divine origin and inerrancy of the Bible. In this they oppose the liberal and modernist theologians, who tend to a more critical, historical view of Scripture.

On the following part he is very wrong and I am a living example of this myself:

Among Muslim theologians there is as yet no such liberal or modernist approach to the Qur'an, and all Muslims, in their attitude to the text of the Qur'an, are in principle at least fundamentalists.

Then we have this:

Where the so-called Muslim fundamentalists differ from other Muslims and indeed from Christian fundamentalists is in their scholasticism and their legalism.

There is nothing legal in what the Radicals promote.
I also don’t know if he can be correct to say that Christian fundamentalists have no scholarship in their religion. I’m not informed if they can yes or no find legal support for their approach.

And this

They base themselves not only on the Qur'an, but also on the Traditions of the Prophet,

Every Muslim does this and in addition

and on the corpus of transmitted theological and legal learning

every Islamic scholar does this.


Not sure about that last sentence holds true I've read a charecteristic of some radicals is a rejection of the even the Hadith. But I read that as saying they desire to live under Sharia, this is a dangerously broad defintion of fundamentalist.

Radicals can’t find any basics for their theories but in their re-invention of tafsir (=exegeses) of Al Qur’an and in some of the Hadith (=the traditions), which is a complex matter on its own, even if you don’t seek to find interpretations and intentions that aren’t even remotely there in the first place. There is no such thing as “the” shari’a either. (Maybe I should add a chapter on that too)

I’m also not particularly interested in what Radicals declare to be “acceptable” terminology but this

" And his conclusion was identical to Madani's: "Having thought a good deal about this matter, I am satisfied to use the word ‘Muslim,' which includes all the activities carried on within the scope and fold of Islam."

would be more acceptable then anything else, since although Radicals do not follow Islam as it was intended, in the end only God can know and decide who is Muslim and what someone’s real intentions are.

Fundamentalism has the same problem as all these broad terms which by their nature lump together disparate groups. I'm not sure if radical, which for me has positive connotations is quite as useful as extremist for these guys.

It has first of all the problem that it is a purely Western-Christian invention.
I use Radicals (but take notice the this is not one of my language, hence there could be a better word for it in English) because they are radical in every sense of the word. They radically break with everything Islam in its origin as a religion stands for. Extremist could still imply they have a foot to stand on in Islam.

And I think this whole discussion about a word non Muslims so stubbornly want to use want to use to refer to Muslims, while Muslims say it is incorrect, has nothing to see with what I made the thread for. ;)

salaam.
 
Aldebaran said:
You should reverse the question: Why do you claim that a word invented in the USA to serve as description for certain Christians SHOULD apply to Islam? It did not even exist in Arabic.
As far as I know the word does not exist in the three biblical languages Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic either. It is not the word that is important, but its meaning.

Aldebaran said:
1. Why this obsession to push typical Western/Christian concepts onto Islam even when told - repeatedly - that it is impossible?
It is not my intention here to make claims about islam. I am trying to understand your claims about islam. You said the word 'fundamentalist' cannot be applied to islam. I am asking why the abstract concept cannot be applied to any branch of islam and/or its faithful. Simply stating that the word is an american invention does not help me to understand your claim.

Aldebaran said:
2. Where am I so unclear in what I wrote in that short analysis that this simple, logical fact still remains so unclear to you?
You seem to be making many statements without giving any explanation as to why you believe them to be correct.

Let me ask you a slightly different question which might help us to understand each other better:

What is your understanding of what the word 'fundamentalism' actually means.
 
Aldebaran said:
I'm glad to see someone with such an insight. I'm looking forward to read your abundance of works on Islam and everything related and other academic publications. Where can I find them?

salaam.

I asked you sometime back where you get current, pertinent information the happenings in the Arab and or Muslim world. You warned against believing the western media.

What media outlets do you use to get the straight story?
 
TAE said:
What is your understanding of what the word 'fundamentalism' actually means.

Aldebaran - do you know the U Kansas "Monkey Trial" archive and in particular the biography of William Bell Riley, the inventor of the term "fundamentalist"?

It's interesting in that (at least according to Prof. Linder's account) Riley's followers started off as soup-kitchen do-gooders, appalled by the "social-Darwinist" (über-capitalist) message promoted in the US by Herbert Spencer, and things went downhill from there.

Aldebaran said:
I also don’t know if he can be correct to say that Christian fundamentalists have no scholarship in their religion. I’m not informed if they can yes or no find legal support for their approach.

"Scholasticism" has little to do with "scholarship" - in fact, in general terms, those who accept "Enlightenment" values, particularly. would see it as the opposite.

In the discourse of Xtian theology - and even more in what you could call meta-theology - it refers to an approach that is based entirely on the analysis of texts by the Authorities, without reference to experience of any kind or to the world. So a Late Mediæval scholastic would take a text by Aristotle and attempt to reconcile it with Biblical passages. (See excessively neutral Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism)

As I have argued here frequently (before you arrived), conspiranoids are our most prominent modern example of scholasticism - see argument from Authority and inhabiting a universe of texts, without reference to evidence from the mundane world. Many of the American Xtian fundamentalists are equally scholastic.
 
mears said:
I asked you sometime back where you get current, pertinent information the happenings in the Arab and or Muslim world. You warned against believing the western media.

What media outlets do you use to get the straight story?

What a curious question. Is there a point to this, Mr Speaking Clock?

(or is that Speaking Cock?) :D
 
As far as I know the word does not exist in the three biblical languages Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic either. It is not the word that is important, but its meaning.

Word and meaning are Christianity-inspired and applied in Christian context.
Islam is not Christianity.

You seem to be making many statements without giving any explanation as to why you believe them to be correct.

Do you expect me to list my diplomas and what good would it do would I be prepared to list them… We would still remain anonymous posters on a message board. Hence if you don’t want to take what I write serious that is a choice you are free to make at all times.

Initially I wrote that short analysis purely to serve as “educational thread” on a US message board and this thread has the same purpose = to provide for information and then discuss it. As such the little piece doesn’t need to be more then what it is, yet like I said: I shall add an explanation on “authority” in Islam.

What is your understanding of what the word 'fundamentalism' actually means.

See definitions given earlier in this thread.
1. If the aim is to radically change the fundaments of the religion (=its core teachings and commands) that can hardly be considered to "go back to the fundaments".
2. If on the other hand the aim is to follow the religion the best way you can, the mere intervenance and circumstances of daily life situations prevents the believer from applying all the core teachings and commands every moment of his/her life.
3. The "average" Muslim is not even aware of how all these core teachings and are explained by a wide range of scholarship crossing sectarian lines and not only through the centuries, but also today.

"Scholasticism" has little to do with "scholarship" - in fact, in general terms, those who accept "Enlightenment" values, particularly. would see it as the opposite.

Sorry, I got the reading of the word wrong. This underscores my reasons why the term Christian “fundamentalist” can’t be applied in context of Radicals who rape Islam and its teachings to defend and propagate the murder on innocents.

I would appreciate if we could proceed from this to what is the aim of this thread.

salaam.
 
Aldebaran said:
Word and meaning are Christianity-inspired and applied in Christian context.
Islam is not Christianity.
Words which initially describe one situation are often adapted to describe other situations. It's how language develops. I'm happy to use a different word if you like, I agree that radicals is a good one, but I am really interested in what you think the real difference is between the two.

Aldebaran said:
Do you expect me to list my diplomas and what good would it do would I be prepared to list them… We would still remain anonymous posters on a message board. Hence if you don’t want to take what I write serious that is a choice you are free to make at all times.
That's not what I meant. Adding more explanations of why you believe something would be useful, because then I can follow your reasoning and agree or disagree.

Aldebaran said:
See definitions given earlier in this thread.
1. If the aim is to radically change the fundaments of the religion (=its core teachings and commands) that can hardly be considered to "go back to the fundaments".
I agree - that is not what I would call fundamentalism either.

Aldebaran said:
2. If on the other hand the aim is to follow the religion the best way you can, the mere intervenance and circumstances of daily life situations prevents the believer from applying all the core teachings and commands every moment of his/her life.
Again I agree, that is why 'the best way you can' is all you can do, because it is impossible to stubbernly following a written code (there are too many 'special cases'), but I think that is the case with just about every faith. On the other hand, trying to follow the fundamental teachings of a faith is certainly possible, and I don't understand what you mean when you say this concept does not apply to islam?

Aldebaran said:
3. The "average" Muslim is not even aware of how all these core teachings and are explained by a wide range of scholarship crossing sectarian lines and not only through the centuries, but also today.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that islam does not have simple to understand basics which could be adhered to ?
 
Aldebaran said:
And I think this whole discussion about a word non Muslims so stubbornly want to use want to use to refer to Muslims, while Muslims say it is incorrect, has nothing to see with what I made the thread for.
A very large group of Christians in America have come to view that Muslims are a people who think exploding themselves amongst school girls is commanded by God rather than just part of a terrorists tactical toolbox. A lot of Westerners share this view. So I think considering the terms that are used outside the Umma has been revealing.

As the article above suggest Islamic Fundamentalism is a term we are stuck with. I think Lewis makes several mistakes here that reflect the debate at the time he was writing. The words are important. I now understand more fully your objections to the term Islamic Fundamentalism. It's partly founded in a superficial understanding of why Christians are using the term and perhaps you need to grow up amongst austere fundamentalist Christians as I did to see why its inexact but resonant.

I entirely agree that the Radicals have strayed very far from the mainstream of Islamic thought, this should be obvious to a Muslim. The Faithful have been rather too quiet about that. The Righteous 80s Afghan approach of occasionally shooting Saudi Salafi who suggested such an offense against God might be more appropriate espeacially now that the targets are overwhelmingly fellow Muslims.

In an excellent short paper Henzel sums it up well:
More important, the contemporary pundits’ calls for “a reformation in Islam” carry with them an implication that the traditional Sunni clerical elite is the ideological basis for al Qaeda, and that weakening the traditional clerical establishment’s hold on the minds of pious Sunnis would promote stability. In fact, the opposite is clearly the case in most of the Sunni world. The mutual condemnations that the establishment and Salafist camps have exchanged over the past century, not to mention the blood shed by both sides, make this clear.

Even in Saudi Arabia, which is exceptional because the religious establishment there is itself Salafist, there is a split between a pro-establishment Salafist camp and the revolutionary Salafists. The Saudi regime and its establishment Salafist allies have asserted themselves against revolutionary Salafist tendencies repeatedly since the 1920s, and are belatedly doing so again now.

The revolutionary Salafists are outsiders. Their movement, from its origins a century ago until today, has been at odds with the Sunni establishment. By tracing the movement’s ideological development over the past century, it becomes clear why al Qaeda’s leaders have chosen their present strategy: the experience of their movement drives them to view their opponents within Sunni Islam—“the near enemy”—as a more important target than non-Muslims—“the far enemy.”
Explaining that suicide bombing is decidely un-Islamic to an audience outside the Umma is rather more of challenge and requires an effort to empathise with their viewpoint.

Some Christian have erred from Christian principles almost as spectacularly turning an unwordly, quietist religon into a manifesto for mamon and beligereant hatred. My impression here is that Muslims in general have a far clearer shared understanding of what being a good Muslim requires than the chaos of Christian sects have of being a good Christian.

One of the problems is a fundamentalist insists, and perhaps sincerely believes, they are returning to the foundation of their religion and are required to reject conventional opinion which has obscured the true faith revealed to them. This piece on Koranic Duels comes back to mind. Everything I've read about Bin Laden suggests he's entirely sincere and has convinced himself that his is the true path that all believers must take.

Christians have always made assumptions based in Christianity about Islam, it took the Byzantines 50 years to notice the followers of The Prophet weren't just another Christian sect and it still goes on. Christians have rarely taken the trouble to understand Islam but in my experience Muslims have if anything even more cartoonish views of Christianity.

In making a fair point your being a bit condescending yourself here and have chosen a bad example:
When non-Muslims hear a reference to the “Pharaoh” they can’t see much in this. Christians could think about the Bible and the story of Joseph at best. Every Muslim can immediately connect with that word in Al Qur’an and what it represents: The greatest tyrant one can imagine to be possible.
Many scripture soaked Christians would instantly understand connotation of Pharaoh's tyranny. When you say Pharaoh to them you may get this rattled back at you:
Duet 6:21 Then you will say to your son, We were servants under Pharaoh's yoke in Egypt; and the Lord took us out of Egypt with a strong hand
I have sat through interminable surmons on the topic of Phararoh's yoke and this passage still what flashes into my Godless but still Bronze Age poetry infested brain.

Some Christian sects are deeply obssesed with scripture and are very scholarly about it, some go as far as saying the Bible is the only book they need. Some would seek to alter law based on their reading of the Bible but Lewis is right that the legalism of Islam is an important distinction. They do twist very odd meanings out of scripture, selectively reading just at the Salafi do and the mindset is similar. In the modern world apart from blowing up the odd abortion clinic in the US or randomly killing Irish Catholics because they are idolators evangelical Christians aren't much associated with terrorism.

While there are instances where Christians sought to return to a higher level integration of Church and State and the Puritan Massachusetts Bay Colony that Americans still celebrate at Thanks giving. Its the dangerously imoderate nature of Christianity that leads to our separation of Church and state and the French attachment to a secular republic.

Incidentally I'm aware there is considerable debate within Islam about what living under Sharia means. It's a point Sardar (who shares your liberal or modernist approach to the Qur'an) makes in his amusing tour of Muslim attitudes Desperately Seeking Paradise.
 
TAE said:
I agree that radicals is a good one, but I am really interested in what you think the real difference is between the two.

The difference is the absence of any link to "religion", let alone "going back to the fundaments" of religion.


Adding more explantions of why you believe something would be useful, because then I can follow your reasoning and agree or disagree.

In this context I write what I write because I am Muslim, Arab, Middle Eastern with European mother and Islamic scholar.

On the other hand, trying to follow the fundamental teachings of a faith is certainly possible, and I don't understand what you mean when you say this concept does not apply to islam?

Trying is not being "fundamentalist".

Are you saying that islam does not have simple to understand basics which could be adhered to ?

Maybe an example outside Islam is better to explain what I meant:
My late mother was Catholic. She knew much about her religion, yet my discussions as a child about it with her priest were more informative and those I had (occasionally still have) with a family friend, who is a Cardinal, have a very different level.

My mother was not a priest, her priest was not a Bishop, a Bishop is not a Cardinal and a Cardinal is not the Pope.
For each of these level of believers you can state that not everyone is a theologian and not everyone is scholared in Church Law (most of the Catholics I know didn't even read the Bible completely). Hence you can hardly say those people are "fundamentalists" or could even become one.

salaam.
 
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