Is Ken Clarke to the left of Tony Blair?

[tim]

If Clarke managed to win the Tory leadership it strikes me that we would end up with a Tory leader who on some issues could be seen to be on the left of Blair. This is seen most clearly on the issue of the war, but also on issues such as civil liberties, Europe, and Britain's relationship with the American Republicans. On most other issues I can see very little difference between them. To me this ays much more about Blair than it does Clarke. Can anyone name issues about which Clarke out-tories Blair?

 

[tobyjug]

I would struggle to think of any British politician to the right of Tony Blair.

 

[Pickman's model]

i agree with tobyjug.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

If Clarke managed to win the Tory leadership it strikes me that we would end up with a Tory leader who on some issues could be seen to be on the left of Blair. This is seen most clearly on the issue of the war, but also on issues such as civil liberties, Europe, and Britain's relationship with the American Republicans. On most other issues I can see very little difference between them. To me this ays much more about Blair than it does Clarke. Can anyone name issues about which Clarke out-tories Blair?

Good question.As far as 'lefts' go Clarke was a Moseley supporter at University, Moseley had a pro European agenda in the 40s and 50s.Both Blair and Clarke's politivcs are firmly based on advocating market solutions. Anyway what is so left about being against the Iraq war?

 

[LLETSA]

Good question.As far as 'lefts' go Clarke was a Moseley supporter at University, Moseley had a pro European agenda in the 40s and 50s.Both Blair and Clarke's politivcs are firmly based on advocating market solutions. Anyway what is so left about being against the Iraq war?

'Traditional conservatives' like Peter Hitchens are against the war in Iraq.

As are the BNP.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Good question.As far as 'lefts' go Clarke was a Moseley supporter at University, Moseley had a pro European agenda in the 40s and 50s.Both Blair and Clarke's politivcs are firmly based on advocating market solutions. Anyway what is so left about being against the Iraq war?

Clarke was not a Moseley supporter. He invited Moseley to his University to speak, but always said that he did so only on the grounds of him being an excellent speaker, important and charismatic politician of old and a pro European, of which I agree with, but I would never claim to agree with his latter day Fascist beliefs.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Clarke was not a Moseley supporter. He invited Moseley to his University to speak, but always said that he did so only on the grounds of him being an excellent speaker, important and charismatic politician of old and a pro European, of which I agree with, but I would never claim to agree with his latter day Fascist beliefs.

So in your view Clark was anti Moseley but thought he was an excellent speaker,important charasmatic politicain of old and pro European? Same charisma that led him to be interned during the war as he was felt not to be batting on our side?

Btw where have you heard Moseley speak?

 

[HarrisonSlade]

So in your view Clark was anti Moseley but thought he was an excellent speaker,important charasmatic politicain of old and pro European? Same charisma that led him to be interned during the war as he was felt not to be batting on our side?

Btw where have you heard Moseley speak?

I have seen footage, and have read manuscripts of his early speeches. He was a fantastic early advocator of manufacturing in the UK. He also believed in workers rights and creation of a fairer wage structure and the setting up of a free Health Service. Within the Labour Party he was a rarity at the time of people like MacDonald and Snowdon who were retorically similar to the likes of Blair and Brown who fought poorer workers and appeased big corporations.

As for his internment during the war, his support for Mussolini was inexcusable and saddening, but did not mean that any other ideals he has had, and has influenced greatly to tremendous effect should be dismissed with his association with William Joyce and his setting up of the BUF.

 

[Random]

He was a fantastic early advocator of manufacturing in the UK. He also believed in workers rights and creation of a fairer wage structure and the setting up of a free Health Service.

IMO, he could have been a film star, like Richard Burton.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I have seen footage, and have read manuscripts of his early speeches. He was a fantastic early advocator of manufacturing in the UK. He also believed in workers rights and creation of a fairer wage structure and the setting up of a free Health Service. Within the Labour Party he was a rarity at the time of people like MacDonald and Snowdon who were retorically similar to the likes of Blair and Brown who fought poorer workers and appeased big corporations.

As for his internment during the war, his support for Mussolini was inexcusable and saddening, but did not mean that any other ideals he has had, and has influenced greatly to tremendous effect should be dismissed with his association with William Joyce and his setting up of the BUF.

Or ideed his support of Hitler, his anti trade unionism, his anti semitism, and his views that black workers from Africa and Jamaica were cheap labour because they could survive on Kitty Kat .Mere froth compared to the loft ideals he espoused eh? The fact that he left the Tories to join Labour and then stormed out when he didn't get his way to launch the New Party and then a BUF and finally the Union Movement modeleld on european fascists is testimony to such high ideals.

Btw I have never actually come across examples of his organisations membership appeasing poorer workers and fighting big corporations. Any examples?

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Or ideed his support of Hitler, his anti trade unionism, his anti semitism, and his views that black workers from Africa and Jamaica were cheap labour because they could survive on Kitty Kat .Mere froth compared to the loft ideals he espoused eh? The fact that he left the Tories to join Labour and then stormed out when he didn't get his way to launch the New Party and then a BUF and finally the Union Movement modeleld on european fascists is testimony to such high ideals.

Btw I have never actually come across examples of his organisations membership appeasing poorer workers and fighting big corporations. Any examples?

For a start Moseley never supported Hitler, neither did Hitler have any regard for Sir Oswald. Moseley even offered to enlist to fight against a German attack, feeling that Nazism was detremental to the UK.

His anti trade unionism came from a naive ideal that it was the Government who would set better conditions and fairer wages, and with him the Unions would not be needed.

His view of immigrants being used as cheap labour, rather than taking notice of the strength of the British worker, and giving him fairer pay thantake on slavery is, again naive, but not an invalid point.

The fact is that the likes of him, MacMillan, Allan Young, John Strachey and Anauren Bevan had the ideals of which brought us the Beveridge Report. Without such people inside Parliament and fighting on Commitees more people in Britain would be living in poverty, and there would be no NHS to help them when they are sick.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

For a start Moseley never supported Hitler, neither did Hitler have any regard for Sir Oswald. Moseley even offered to enlist to fight against a German attack, feeling that Nazism was detremental to the UK.

His anti trade unionism came from a naive ideal that it was the Government who would set better conditions and fairer wages, and with him the Unions would not be needed.

His view of immigrants being used as cheap labour, rather than taking notice of the strength of the British worker, and giving him fairer pay thantake on slavery is, again naive, but not an invalid point.

The fact is that the likes of him, MacMillan, Allan Young, John Strachey and Anauren Bevan had the ideals of which brought us the Beveridge Report. Without such people inside Parliament and fighting on Commitees more people in Britain would be living in poverty, and there would be no NHS to help them when they are sick.

The fact that he espoused such nonsense about immigrant cheap labour at the time of virtual full employment and the fact that he was gainst trade unions who were pursuing wage claims at the time makes pretty much sums up the thinness of the Moseley had a point brigade.

Do you know it is years since I have met a Moseley sympathiser. I used to meet the occassional one in the 70s and underneath the 'Moseley was misunderstood , he was never a fascist' there was always agreement with his views on the Jews. Apart from listing his war record and his fencing skills none of them ever spent time on his pre fascist period. The attraction for them was the swagger of the BUF and then the Union Movement and of course his anti semitism and fights against the commies.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

IMO, he could have been a film star, like Richard Burton.

Alexi Sayle called him the Busby Berkeley of British fascism.

 

[Ryazan]

You are though, in my opinion, a better comedian than Alexi Sayle.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

You are though, in my opinion, a better comedian than Alexi Sayle.

Why thank you Ryazan But underneath this gay exterior I have a serious side.

 

[scawenb]

Who is this Sir Oswald Moseley? - it Mosley for heaven's sake! How come people can know so much about him except how to spell his name.

As it happens my grandfather did know the Mosley when he was in the Labour Party as his father was a Stoke Councillor. I have to say even before his defection he wasn't much liked.

As to Clarke then his "left of Blair" credentials are more than just the war, it also includes civil liberties and other issues. In the end they both want to preserve the same system but they do have different ideas about how to go about it.

 

[Ryazan]

Why thank you Ryazan But underneath this gay exterior I have a serious side.

 

[oi2002]

Well I don't know if this analysis is helpful but Mr Tony is a total cunt where as Ken Clarke is only on the board of BAT.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I have seen footage, and have read manuscripts of his early speeches. He was a fantastic early advocator of manufacturing in the UK. He also believed in workers rights and creation of a fairer wage structure and the setting up of a free Health Service. Within the Labour Party he was a rarity at the time of people like MacDonald and Snowdon who were retorically similar to the likes of Blair and Brown who fought poorer workers and appeased big corporations.

As for his internment during the war, his support for Mussolini was inexcusable and saddening, but did not mean that any other ideals he has had, and has influenced greatly to tremendous effect should be dismissed with his association with William Joyce and his setting up of the BUF.

An inexcusable and sad Mosley hides his other ideals in a moment of madness...

and lets not forget who the 'misguided one' had at his second wedding, apparantly a chap who didn't have much time for him...

Mosley made several low-profile visits to Germany and in October 1936 married his second wife, Diana Guinness, in Berlin with Goebbels and Hitler in attendance. His new wife was herself an enthusiastic Germanophile whose sister, Unity Mitford, was a notorious hanger-on of Hitler. Mosley even had plans to establish a commercial radio station broadcasting from Germany. It seems highly likely that German money found its way to the BUF.

 

[likesfish]

if you look harder enough you can find good things to say about hitler motorways volkswagen beetles er pbman will be along later to talk about guns and tanks does'nt change the fact he was mostly an evil shit mosely never got the chance to be really evil