Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Wookey]

Really brilliant analysis on the Bercow manoeuvre on the Grieve amendment, from Ian Dunt who has fast become my fave commentator and political nerd.

Parliament is now at war with government - and it's winning

"There is also an awful lot of nonsense about the idea that Bercow is abusing his impartiality as Speaker to help Remain. In actual fact, the last time Bercow went against convention so aggressively was in 2013, during the Queen's Speech, when he allowed an unprecedented third amendment about the absence of a bill for a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU. When he breaks the conventions for Brexiters, they say nothing. When it is against their interests, they scream about parliamentary procedure."

 

[free spirit]

We're not talking about May standing down, we're talking about the government losing a vote of no confidence. Once that happens, there is, surely, no government to ask the EU anything until after the election when a new government is formed.

The FTP act allows for anyone to attempt to gain the necessary support to form a government following the first vote of no confidence before a general election is called - as the explanatory notes for the legislation make clear.

So it's possible parliament could vote out May's government and then vote in either Corbyn, or someone else who's capable of gaining the majorty support of Parliament.

Currently the only person who seems able to get a majority on Brexit related votes in the Commons seems to be dominic grieve who put forward the motion that's reduced the time between Brexit votes to 3 days from 21.

If May loses the 2 votes Parliament could actually vote to remove the government, and then vote in a different temporary unity government pretty much straight away, probably just to either cancel article 50 or more likely put the legislation through for a 2nd referendum and ask the EU to extend article 50 to allow it. I'm pretty sure from the timings that this is Grieve's aim, not sure who they have in mind as the unity prime minister candidate.



eta actually Grieve has detailed his strategy here, which doesn't mention this route, but it is a possibility if Corbyn does put forward a motion of no confidence in the government.

 

[Calamity1971]

You wouldn't believe, looks like a Job Centre Plus in my bedroom some days.

Fucking hell!
As a self confessed fuckwit when it comes to brexit, I like to read this thread for people's views. I'm obviously not as educated as you, but if i slated people who had to frequent jobcentre plus like you have I'd be very fucking ashamed.

 

[redsquirrel]

This kind of crap always comes out eventually from low achievers, doesn't it?

Urgh.

 

[andysays]

This kind of crap always comes out eventually from low achievers, doesn't it?

Would you believe it, some of those daring to post here don't even have a basic grasp of colour coordination...

 

[brogdale]

Tommy Robinson is working class, isn't he? We're not all heroes, and some of us are cunts. The anti-intellectual ones who mistake learning for economic or class progression are the biggest self-limiting cunts of all.

Being well educated and being working class are not mutually exclusive.

Invoking tommeh to justify your own cuntishness looks almost like a deliberate attempt to illustrate the notion that, of itself, educational attainment does not necessarily endow wisdom.
Dismal derail of a good thread; I’ll strive to ignore your narcissistic twaddle from now on.

 

[Badgers]

I do quite a lot of business with Scandinavian companies. Around a third are saying they are not coming to the UK as they don't trust us (the government) to manage Brexit.

Can't really blame them

 

[kebabking]

Christ, and I thought I was a sneering twat...

 

[killer b]

The FTP act allows for anyone to attempt to gain the necessary support to form a government following the first vote of no confidence before a general election is called - as the explanatory notes for the legislation make clear.

So it's possible parliament could vote out May's government and then vote in either Corbyn, or someone else who's capable of gaining the majorty support of Parliament.

Currently the only person who seems able to get a majority on Brexit related votes in the Commons seems to be dominic grieve who put forward the motion that's reduced the time between Brexit votes to 3 days from 21.

If May loses the 2 votes Parliament could actually vote to remove the government, and then vote in a different temporary unity government pretty much straight away, probably just to either cancel article 50 or more likely put the legislation through for a 2nd referendum and ask the EU to extend article 50 to allow it. I'm pretty sure from the timings that this is Grieve's aim, not sure who they have in mind as the unity prime minister candidate.

View attachment 158312

eta actually Grieve has detailed his strategy here, which doesn't mention this route, but it is a possibility if Corbyn does put forward a motion of no confidence in the government.

The problem with a temporary unity government is that Theresa May is still leader of the conservatives and Jeremy Corbyn is leader of Labour, and neither of them would be interested in getting involved. Any MP for either party who did would have the whip removed. Are there enough Labour and Tory MPs prepared to torpedo their careers to form a government? I don't think so.

 

[Pickman's model]

You wouldn't believe, looks like a Job Centre Plus in my bedroom some days.

Can we get back to Brexit please?

Not sure if you're saying you shag dolies or making out you wake up next to officious sanctioning wankers

 

[SpookyFrank]

You wouldn't believe, looks like a Job Centre Plus in my bedroom some days.

So you degrade and insult your clients?

Or maybe you just have really nasty furniture.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm a linguistics graduate, qualified secondary English teacher, a TEFL teacher and a professional writer of 25 years. So I am in a very strong position to correct Wilf on his erroneous vocabulary, actually.

LOL

 

[SpineyNorman]

the chavs I fuck love being called chavs, it's how they introduce themselves very often.

I met a black man

 

[seventh bullet]

Tommy Robinson is working class, isn't he? We're not all heroes, and some of us are cunts. The anti-intellectual ones who mistake learning for economic or class progression are the biggest self-limiting cunts of all.

Being well educated and being working class are not mutually exclusive.

The problem is not with education per se but the use of access to formal education as a way to to not only denigrate and attempt to humiliate people into silence (what would you know about such things van driver/hair dresser/stay at home parent) or to try and invalidate what they are saying because of their class/economic status. And it's that status value which some people attach to that access and through which I have seen nasty irl put-downs of 'ordinary' people. It is often used as a way to dismiss or disregard w/c people and it should be challenged.

I am also amused by your conflation of access to formal education with intelligence or intellectual curiosity and learning. That is where the above is also used to attack and exclude w/c people, when these types are challenged by the arguments or better knowledge of people deemed their social inferiors. It is intended to shut those challenges down by appealing to their own authority. The parading of educational credentials as a way to put the prole back in their place. There's nasty class dynamics going on with that and it should be shown up for what it is.

TR is petit-bourgeois labour camp fodder.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I am also amused by your conflation of access to formal education with intelligence or intellectual curiosity and learning.

This. I have a degree in history these days but I'm actually less inclined to read it now than I was before and there's not many areas of history where I wouldn't defer to seventh bullet or butchersapron, neither of whom have a degree to the best of my knowledge.

In my experience an arts or languages degree just means you had the chance to go, either through background or sheer luck, and you're not completely academically incapable. It's really not difficult even I fucking managed it.

My apprenticeship was fucking difficult and hard work though...

 

[brogdale]

Leadership contender Hunt all over the media 'warning' that voting down May's 'agreement' would result in "Brexit paralysis".

Their desperation is such that indictment of their own capabilities is regarded as leverage.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Would you believe it, some of those daring to post here don't even have a basic grasp of colour coordination...

Colour coordination? WTAF is that?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Christ, and I thought I was a sneering twat...

Oh, don't worry, you still are!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I met a black man

Was that the 45-yr old black man who'd been in the Royal Navy for 40 yrs?

 

[kebabking]

Oh, don't worry, you still are!

thank God for that - i can see myself having to up my game though, i'm not going to get to 400 points with this coasting attitude!

 

[DotCommunist]

Leadership contender Hunt all over the media 'warning' that voting down May's 'agreement' would result in "Brexit paralysis".

Their desperation is such that indictment of their own capabilities is regarded as leverage.

last time I saw that weak chin on the tele he was extolling the virtues of democracy, in Singapore.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The problem is not with education per se but the use of access to formal education as a way to to not only denigrate and attempt to humiliate people into silence (what would you know about such things van driver/hair dresser/stay at home parent) or to try and invalidate what they are saying because of their class/economic status. And it's that status value which some people attach to that access and through which I have seen nasty irl put-downs of 'ordinary' people. It is often used as a way to dismiss or disregard w/c people and it should be challenged.

Frankly, even if you've attained similar or better formal education awards, if you speak with a working class accent, then you're still dismissed and disregarded, or you're treated like a pet monkey, by the "learned" middle classes.

I've posted here before about being on the receiving end of that in real life, most recently from an Oxbridge wanker (same college as Laurie Penny and fuck off dwyer) who's a local councillor. She waved her Bachelor's degree (at me as a way of implying that I didn't know what I was talking about regarding white collar crime in local authorities, so I waved my Masters (Criminology) back (not that I needed to, because I live in a thoroughly corrupt borough that's been the "south of Watford" equivalent of Doncaster for decades, so have seen quite a bit of it first-hand). Cue her trying (and failing) to have me blacklisted from attending any meetings or events at the Town Hall.

I am also amused by your conflation of access to formal education with intelligence or intellectual curiosity and learning. That is where the above is also used to attack and exclude w/c people, when these types are challenged by the arguments or better knowledge of people deemed their social inferiors. It is intended to shut those challenges down by appealing to their own authority. The parading of educational credentials as a way to put the prole back in their place. There's nasty class dynamics going on with that and it should be shown up for what it is.

Appeals to authority, especially one's own (unless thoroughly qualified) are often the mark of a very poor argument. We know this, and those doing it know it too. There will ALWAYS be nasty class dynamics, because for some people it's all they've got. It's why the Tories (Blue and Red) have gone out of their way to insulate the middle classes for so long, while hacking away the access of working class adults to formal further and higher education and to libraries.

TR is petit-bourgeois labour camp fodder.

Not even worth a bullet.

 

[brogdale]

Was that the 45-yr old black man who'd been in the Royal Navy for 40 yrs?

Thick pig fucking twat said he was 40 & had been in the Navy for 30 years.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thick pig fucking twat said he was 40 & had been in the Navy for 30 years.

Knew it was something like that.

 

[Pickman's model]

Frankly, even if you've attained similar or better formal education awards, if you speak with a working class accent, then you're still dismissed and disregarded, or you're treated like a pet monkey, by the "learned" middle classes.

not to mention that working class students are often bullied by entitled scum who believe only their class should be at uni

 

[ViolentPanda]

not to mention that working class students at are often bullied by entitled scum who believe only their class should be at uni

Sadly true.

 

[brogdale]

not to mention that working class students at are often bullied by entitled scum who believe only their class should be at uni

My experience was sometimes bullying, but nearly always patronising.

 

[chilango]

Frankly, even if you've attained similar or better formal education awards, if you speak with a working class accent, then you're still dismissed and disregarded, or you're treated like a pet monkey, by the "learned" middle classes.

Which is why private education is designed to enable the transmission/acquisition/reproduction of social and cultural capital as well as educational capital.

 

[Poi E]

So your chances in life come down to where you stick your tongue when you make vowel sounds. Seems fair.

 

[Wookey]

So your chances in life come down to where you stick your tongue when you make vowel sounds. Seems fair.

That's why we change our accents at job interviews. I always felt more sorry for the posh people who actually can't change their accents as well, because they've never had to. They have one posh default, and if they try to informalise their accent and drop their H's, it sounds effected to me...

I can code switch from my natural Salford urban working class idiolect to newsreader in a heartbeat, it's what you do to increase your social mobility, it should not be a fact of life of course, but it is.