Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[chilango]

How do you develop that capability if you're always telling people we need to stay out of things until we have the capability?

By picking fights you can win.

Or failing that picking fights that unite.

This fight we lose whatever happens and divides more than it unites.

It's not like there's a shortage of other stuff we could be getting in with in the meantime. I'm sure people are already.

 

[chilango]

I think we are. I know my union is in better shape now. I know Socialism is a far more popular word now than it was then. I know we've been through experiences and struggles. Why do you think we're not?

I see no sign of any oeganised capacity for a fight in my daily life.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It has to happen. The clock's ticking. It's either whatever deal can be mustered over the next few months or crashing out. That's it, even if both of those are really shit options. Cos the referendum. Like democracy ended on 26 June 2016.

That's pretty much exactly the line May is taking.

Is that your line? That it's this deal or a crash out?

I've seen people on the left accuse each other of siding with Farage and Johnson/Blair and Cameron before but this is new to me - accusing yourself of mirroring May's line!

 

[chilango]

Do you think were there to be a second referendum that the Left could intervene and put a Socialist case (one way or the other) for people to vote for?

It's likely that a General Election would see a Leftish Labour campaign, which would something, perhaps.

But even Labour have yet to really shift the discussion on Brexit into "our" territory.

Given the Left couldn't get it's act together to oppose austerity, home ground for the Left surely? I don't see any cause for optimism that it could muster any sort of coherent intervention in debates (and hypothetical struggles) around Brexit.

But, of course, I'd love to be proved wrong.

I think we are. I know my union is in better shape now. I know Socialism is a far more popular word now than it was then. I know we've been through experiences and struggles. Why do you think we're not?

 

[SpackleFrog]

By picking fights you can win.

Or failing that picking fights that unite.

This fight we lose whatever happens and divides more than it unites.

It's not like there's a shortage of other stuff we could be getting in with in the meantime. I'm sure people are already.

Ok, great - but I didn't pick for the referendum to happen did I?

We can't control the various crises - political, social or economic - that capitalism produces, only how we respond. Are you arguing that Socialists should have advocated some form of revolutionary abstentionalism?

Do we lose whatever happens? I feel like the Tory Party imploding and the whole question of how our economy works being thrown up in a way it never was before is a win!

Yes, there's lots of stuff going on but it all relates back to the socio-economic model on which the country is built and that is tied inextricably to the question of the EU.

I see no sign of any oeganised capacity for a fight in my daily life.

That's a real shame. I definitely do. Just today, dinner ladies at a school not far from me won a victory, stopping threat of redundancies, through indefinite strike action. That's great. We live in a country where strikes are winning again.

Don't you remember the misery of the New Labour years? We finally got rid of the Tories but it achieved nothing. Trade unions seemed an irrelevance. I prefer 2018 enourmously.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Do you think were there to be a second referendum that the Left could intervene and put a Socialist case (one way or the other) for people to vote for?

It's likely that a General Election would see a Leftish Labour campaign, which would something, perhaps.

But even Labour have yet to really shift the discussion on Brexit into "our" territory.

Given the Left couldn't get it's act together to oppose austerity, home ground for the Left surely? I don't see any cause for optimism that it could muster any sort of coherent intervention in debates (and hypothetical struggles) around Brexit.

But, of course, I'd love to be proved wrong.

Yes, I think that's possible - not saying Corbyn will do it!

You're right Labour have failed to a degree. But I think Corbyn's lines in the GE last year - jobs first Brexit, no new immigration controls etc - I think that represents something to build upon.

 

[chilango]

Ok, great - but I didn't pick for the referendum to happen did I?

We can't control the various crises - political, social or economic - that capitalism produces, only how we respond. Are you arguing that Socialists should have advocated some form of revolutionary abstentionalism?

Do we lose whatever happens? I feel like the Tory Party imploding and the whole question of how our economy works being thrown up in a way it never was before is a win!

Yes, there's lots of stuff going on but it all relates back to the socio-economic model on which the country is built and that is tied inextricably to the question of the EU.




That's a real shame. I definitely do. Just today, dinner ladies at a school not far from me won a victory, stopping threat of redundancies, through indefinite strike action. That's great. We live in a country where strikes are winning again.

Don't you remember the misery of the New Labour years? We finally got rid of the Tories but it achieved nothing. Trade unions seemed an irrelevance. I prefer 2018 enourmously.

I'm (genuinely) glad to hear that you see causes for optimism.

I'd rather you were right than me, really.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I'm (genuinely) glad to hear that you see causes for optimism.

I'd rather you were right than me, really.

I should stress my optimism is based on the fact that I believe we are coming out of a period where the labour movement had no organisational power to point to at all so please take this as my version of #ThingsCanOnlyGetBetter

 

[Pickman's model]

I should stress my optimism is based on the fact that I believe we are coming out of a period where the labour movement had no organisational power to point to at all so please take this as my version of #ThingsCanOnlyGetBetter

I'll come back to you about this and expect to hear your version of #thingscanonlygetbitter

 

[Poi E]

the ship of state leaves the sea of uncharted waters and enters the mapless waste ocean

Well, it floats around the bath a bit more.

 

[Duncan2]

.

 

[Poi E]

To the point.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I should stress my optimism is based on the fact that I believe we are coming out of a period where the labour movement had no organisational power to point to at all so please take this as my version of #ThingsCanOnlyGetBetter

As a point of information, I must once again point out that I voted Remain.

i mind that, was about to rush to your defence.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I seem to have upset urban there.

 

[mauvais]

Ok, great - but I didn't pick for the referendum to happen did I?

We can't control the various crises - political, social or economic - that capitalism produces, only how we respond.

In the sense of 'there's going to be a Euro referendum', sure, but in the broader sense this hopefully isn't true. It would mean you could only be reactive and driven by events, rather than proactively challenging the conditions before they produce those outputs.

 

[Pickman's model]

I seem to have upset urban there.

Not sure anyone noticed

 

[Duncan2]

Is Chilango right or is Spacklefrog right as to the current state of health of organised Labour in the UK.I wish I knew because like Chilango,and unlike Spacklefrog, I don't see signs of "green shoots".Perhaps in my case this is straightforwardly a function of the fact that I am in precarious employment and in the private sector.But is this not the growth area in terms of UK employment? The last place I worked where Unite were a recognisable force there was nothing cosmopolitan about the solidarity.The permanent workers were mainly Brits and they jealously guarded the wage differential between themselves and the temps, who were mainly Eastern Europeans, not least by allowing the management to disregard the Agency Worker's Directive.Unite members were not expected to break ranks in that regard.I have subsequently moved on through various similar employments each of which has been a waste-land in terms of Union presence.There is solidarity of course but its really not much more than language-based tribalism veering towards nepotism.Talk of Unions is about as well received and as common as talk of unicorns.Apologies for the scarcely relevant derail.

 

[Dragnet]

This might be of interest to a few here, given that he's been mentioned a few times already: Costas Lapavitsas at Housmans on Dec 8th, to tie in with the release of his new book.

Events at Housmans

 

[ViolentPanda]

She's next level groveller.

Looks like she's kacking her drawers. "Please excuse me, your eminences, just curling one out!".

 

[SpineyNorman]

View attachment 153804

Pretty sure one heart beat per Simpsons episode would be fatal

 

[Pickman's model]

Pretty sure one heart beat per Simpsons episode would be fatal

Should be 7260 Simpsons episodes ((121x24x60)/24)

 

[ViolentPanda]

My ideal Brexit would be for the workers to seize control of the mean of production and tell the EU to get to fuck. But I suspect what you actually want me to state is whether I want a "hard" or "soft" Brexit (whatever those words even mean), and that's part of the politics I'm criticising. You are limiting the options to those permitted by capital.

You just said that you believed in the strength of the working class, now you've written it off completely.

If we're going to have a Brexit, it needs to be an Andrex Brexit: Soft, strong, and very long, because anything else and our incompetent fuck-ups of politicians will see us all - except themselves and their paymasters - in the gutter.

 

[ViolentPanda]

View attachment 153795

Looks like they spent more on the headstone, than on the actual fucking plan.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Is Chilango right or is Spacklefrog right as to the current state of health of organised Labour in the UK.I wish I knew because like Chilango,and unlike Spacklefrog, I don't see signs of "green shoots".Perhaps in my case this is straightforwardly a function of the fact that I am in precarious employment and in the private sector.But is this not the growth area in terms of UK employment? The last place I worked where Unite were a recognisable force there was nothing cosmopolitan about the solidarity.The permanent workers were mainly Brits and they jealously guarded the wage differential between themselves and the temps, who were mainly Eastern Europeans, not least by allowing the management to disregard the Agency Worker's Directive.Unite members were not expected to break ranks in that regard.I have subsequently moved on through various similar employments each of which has been a waste-land in terms of Union presence.There is solidarity of course but its really not much more than language-based tribalism veering towards nepotism.Talk of Unions is about as well received and as common as talk of unicorns.Apologies for the scarcely relevant derail.

We had a serious strike this year and won, rather than the usual token one day strike followed by a loss. The union was irrelevant, now everyone talks about whats going on and we have loads of new reps. This may make the world seem a little bit more rose tinted than it is from my perspective.

On the other hand, I've spent 5 years building that union branch, so maybe you just reap what you sow

I'm sorry about the experience with Unite, sounds shit. But there's only one way to make things better. As much as a cliche as that sounds!

 

[SpackleFrog]

I'll come back to you about this and expect to hear your version of #thingscanonlygetbitter

I know you will. But I will not be bitter!

I'm in a 12 step program. It's not allowed.

 

[SpackleFrog]

In the sense of 'there's going to be a Euro referendum', sure, but in the broader sense this hopefully isn't true. It would mean you could only be reactive and driven by events, rather than proactively challenging the conditions before they produce those outputs.

I'm not saying we can't be proactive. We can, we can be proactive about what we do. But we can't control the fact that the Labour Party under Milliband was so awful Cameron got back in and called a referendum. That's not us.

Well. No one I know had any control over that anyway!

 

[Pickman's model]

I know you will. But I will not be bitter!

I'm in a 12 step program. It's not allowed.

Wait till you're one step beyond

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not saying we can't be proactive. We can, we can be proactive about what we do. But we can't control the fact that the Labour Party under Milliband was so awful Cameron got back in and called a referendum. That's not us.

Well. No one I know had any control over that anyway!

What's the serenity prayer say again?

 

[SpackleFrog]

What's the serenity prayer say again?

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I actually think this is a fantastic thing for any trade union rep to remember!

 

[Yossarian]

If we're going to have a Brexit, it needs to be an Andrex Brexit: Soft, strong, and very long, because anything else and our incompetent fuck-ups of politicians will see us all - except themselves and their paymasters - in the gutter.

I think there might be something less comfortable than Andrex on the way - "a fine strong Brexit."