Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[littlebabyjesus]

If there's one fixed point in this morass of shite, it's that we leave. In the free floating venn diagram of different politics, different approaches to how to do things, it's the bit in the middle, the bit that should be clear. Not sure I like where it will take us - I have a suspicion with the organised working class being so weak that things may get worse. But that was the decision. Inventing process to overturn that decision would be the ultimate reassertion of the politics that lead to brexit in the first place.

If there were a second referendum with a choice of a specific deal or scrap brexit, how would the result of that referendum be undemocratic?

As for the motivation behind people calling for a second referendum, who cares what that is? I opposed very strongly the motivation behind the first referendum. Should I be allowed to declare it invalid on that basis? These are incoherent arguments.

 

[SpookyFrank]

My freezer is stocked! is yours?

Freezer's no good without electric. For which we rely on *drumroll* gas and coal brought in via Europe.

 

[Wilf]

If there were a second referendum with a choice of a specific deal or scrap brexit, how would the result of that referendum be undemocratic?

As for the motivation behind people calling for a second referendum, who cares what that is? I opposed very strongly the motivation behind the first referendum. Should I be allowed to declare it invalid on that basis? These are incoherent arguments.

For the same reason I don't think we should replay football matches again till we get the 'right outcome'. Because that's what it could be.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

View attachment 153804

That Simpson's number is wildly wrong. /offtopicpedantry

 

[Wilf]

 

[danny la rouge]

a mutually acceptable Brexit?

I thought you were edging away from the two pole dichotomy model, but this has just placed you back in it. Like I’ve said, I don’t accept that model.

 

[mauvais]

I thought you were edging away from the two pole dichotomy model, but this has just placed you back in it. Like I’ve said, I don’t accept that model.

Not sure if we're talking at cross purposes here - a Brexit implementation that the majority of the voting public chose in favour of rather than continuing to defer.

Incidentally I've got weird deja vu about these last few posts.

 

[danny la rouge]

Incidentally I've got weird deja vu about these last few posts

Just the last few?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

That Simpson's number is wildly wrong. /offtopicpedantry

This is Brexit, perfectly OK to make up numbers.

 

[teqniq]

NASA receives signal from Mars saying Brexit deal is shit

 

[Wilf]

Labour now just about backing a 2nd ref (in/out? deal/no deal? Dunno):
Brexit: McDonnell says it is 'inevitable' Labour will back second referendum - Politics live
(at 15:08)

 

[Pickman's model]

Labour now just about backing a 2nd ref (in/out? deal/no deal? Dunno):
Brexit: McDonnell says it is 'inevitable' Labour will back second referendum - Politics live
(at 15:08)

no doubt someone will restate labour party policy at some point

 

[Sprocket.]

NASA receives signal from Mars saying Brexit deal is shit

I have often wondered what planet Westminster is on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Labour now just about backing a 2nd ref (in/out? deal/no deal? Dunno):
Brexit: McDonnell says it is 'inevitable' Labour will back second referendum - Politics live
(at 15:08)

use the bastard snipping tool, that's what it's there for

 

[andysays]

Labour now just about backing a 2nd ref (in/out? deal/no deal? Dunno):
Brexit: McDonnell says it is 'inevitable' Labour will back second referendum - Politics live
(at 15:08)

FWIW, the BBC is reporting it slightly differently
Brexit: Referendum may be inevitable - John McDonnell

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell has suggested it is "inevitable" another EU referendum will be called if Labour are not able to force a general election. An election remains Labour's preferred option if - as is widely expected - MPs vote down Theresa May's Brexit deal on 11 December. The shadow chancellor said forcing an election would be "very difficult". And if it was not possible, he told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg, the party would push for another referendum.

 

[Wilf]

FWIW, the BBC is reporting it slightly differently
Brexit: Referendum may be inevitable - John McDonnell

Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant. I knew they were calling for an election but am assuming it won't happen i.e. this is a call for a further referendum.
I've been critical of labour all along on brexit, but think they've got it just about right on this bit. The running order probably should be 1. Election? No >>>>> 2. Call for Ref 2 as the decider. The issue will be the question(s), if we get that far. Ref on a deal/no deal or a 'ref to overturn brexit'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant. I knew they were calling for an election but am assuming it won't happen i.e. this is a call for a further referendum.
I've been critical of labour all along on brexit, but think they've got it just about right on this bit. The running order probably should be 1. Election? No >>>>> 2. Call for Ref 2 as the decider. The issue will be the question(s), if we get that far. Ref on a deal/no deal or a 'ref to overturn brexit'.

q: do you want the shitty agreement reached by the former person may or would you prefer, however grudgingly, to creep back into the eu so all the jobs don't disappear?

 

[andysays]

Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant. I knew they were calling for an election but am assuming it won't happen i.e. this is a call for a further referendum.
I've been critical of labour all along on brexit, but think they've got it just about right on this bit. The running order probably should be 1. Election? No >>>>> 2. Call for Ref 2 as the decider. The issue will be the question(s), if we get that far. Ref on a deal/no deal or a 'ref to overturn brexit'.

No need to apologise, I was just pointing out that The G seems to me to be putting a slightly different spin on McDonnell's words to the BBC.

I think it's correct that Labour will find it hard to force a GE, though whether that makes another Ref "inevitable" I don't know.

It's by no means certain that such a referendum could be proposed, passed and set up in the time available. Nothing is inevitable...

 

[Pickman's model]

No need to apologise, I was just pointing out that The G seems to me to be putting a slightly different spin on McDonnell's words to the BBC.

I think it's correct that Labour will find it hard to force a GE, though whether that makes another Ref "inevitable" I don't know.

It's by no means certain that such a referendum could be proposed, passed and set up in the time available. Nothing is inevitable...

it is impossible that such a referendum could be proposed, passed and set up in the time available as apparently there has to be a six months campaign so everyone's pissed off at the end of it

 

[Wilf]

No need to apologise, I was just pointing out that The G seems to me to be putting a slightly different spin on McDonnell's words to the BBC.

I think it's correct that Labour will find it hard to force a GE, though whether that makes another Ref "inevitable" I don't know.

It's by no means certain that such a referendum could be proposed, passed and set up in the time available. Nothing is inevitable...

Yes, I think nothing is inevitable and there are all manner of procedural barriers to many of these outcomes. However I suspect a few unimagined processes will open up at the point when the government decides it has the numbers for ... something.

 

[andysays]

it is impossible that such a referendum could be proposed, passed and set up in the time available as apparently there has to be a six months campaign so everyone's pissed off at the end of it

So it would depend on an A50 extension, which is possible but not guaranteed

 

[Pickman's model]

So it would depend on an A50 extension, which is possible but not guaranteed

tbh the sequence will go something like this

the former person may commends her shitty deal to the house

the house shits on her shitty deal

the ecj ruling on whether the uk can revoke its article 50 invocation is waved all round the commons

the ship of state leaves the sea of uncharted waters and enters the mapless waste ocean

 

[andysays]

tbh the sequence will go something like this

the former person may commends her shitty deal to the house

the house shits on her shitty deal

the ecj ruling on whether the uk can revoke its article 50 invocation is waved all round the commons

the ship of state leaves the sea of uncharted waters and enters the mapless waste ocean

Yeah, but are you saying that's inevitable?

 

[SpookyFrank]

I have often wondered what planet Westminster is on.

If they're having to import everything via an eight-month spacecraft journey that would at least explain the price of a pint in central London.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, but are you saying that's inevitable?

No, the former person may may withdraw her shitty deal from consideration

 

[Wilf]

it is impossible that such a referendum could be proposed, passed and set up in the time available as apparently there has to be a six months campaign so everyone's pissed off at the end of it

Just on the timing thing, it certainly looks like it would need an article 50 suspension/extension to get a 2nd ref in:
Reality Check: How would the UK hold a second EU referendum?
Lots of planetary alignment needed to get some sort of legislation through, perhaps starting with an opposition motion after the defeat of Plan A? Very difficult and requiring a working majority in favour of a 2nd ref (the difficult bit). I would have thought though that the length of the actual campaign was the most squeezable bit of the whole process? They might argue they could overturn the Electoral Commission's recommendations because this is a straight 'do you want this fucking deal or not' type question.

aka I ain't got a fucking clue.

 

[teqniq]

 

[SpackleFrog]

Not really. Just the usual waffly stuff. That or full on revolution.

You've got a fucking cheek considering what you come out with!

 

[SpackleFrog]

Thered a difference between it being importanti and it being something we should be fighting for.

We don't have the capability to fight for much right now and I'm arguing that getting that capability is priority rather than getting lost in someone else's battle.

How do you develop that capability if you're always telling people we need to stay out of things until we have the capability?

 

[SpackleFrog]

We weren't ready in the run up to the referendum. That's blindingly obvious.

Are we in a better shape now?

No.

I think we are. I know my union is in better shape now. I know Socialism is a far more popular word now than it was then. I know we've been through experiences and struggles. Why do you think we're not?