Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Because I'm not every case would you, or could you, remove their citizenship - particularly if the offences are committed in the UK. So, for example, if someone were agitating for an IS 'victory' in or over the UK, but they were in the UK, and not a citizen, or entitled to be a citizen, of another country, then their offences would easily fall within the 1351 Treason Act.
Personally I think that most of the Guardians' output falls within the 1351 act as well, but that's just me...
Nine Bob Note
Self-Isolating before it was fashionable
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
IS are not at war with the UK though. At best you could say they are at war with Syria and Iraq, so helping them out cannot be treason against the UK, even if the UK has some troops on the ground (do they?), the UK is not at war with a non-existent state, so treason doesn't really apply.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Would IS not consider themselves to be at war with all western countries?
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't we have to recognise them as a legitimate state to accept that we're at war with them...?
(Again, technicalities. . . )
(Again, technicalities. . . )
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
No, a state can't commit treason, only an individual can, they must be UK citizens. However...
IS may proclaim they are at war against the west, but not being a legitimate state their proclamation is no more real than if you or I made it. So assisting IS in itself cannot be treasonous, (as would have been assisting Germany during WW2, for example).
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Raheem
Well-Known Member
It's got to be at least a little bit more real than if you or I made it, surely?
In all seriousness, what makes you think that a declaration of war needs to be made by a state in order to be real. Not saying I know any different, just wondering.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
The 1351 act says very little about states of war, or other states, merely The Kings Enemies, which is as elegant a catch-all terms you could wish for.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Treason is disloyalty to the crown. Acting for a state against which the UK is at war would clearly be treason. Acting for or as part of a bunch of murderous thugs rampaging around Syria, even if they murder some UK citizens, is not being disloyal to the crown. Of course some people in the UK who have gone on rampages claim to be acting for IS, (mostly they say they are influenced by IS though), and IS claims that dead players in UK atrocities are 'IS soldiers', but there is no way to verify that and they have been shown to claim that everything that happens is down to them, so wouldn't stand up in court.
Hence why some people are talking about revamping treason laws to include IS, that would mean re-writing the definition of treason in the UK, and still couldn't apply to non-UK citizens, including those who have had their citizenship removed from them.
What this MEP is doing saying it should include those who big up the EU is anyone's guess, but the clue is that he is a tory politico, so probably his syphilis addled brain doesn't work very well.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
It also talks of those who bone the heir's wife, but James Hewitt remains free.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Hence my views on the CPS...
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Agreed. But there were executions for treason following the Easter Rising, I think, which wouldn't fit that case.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Might have caused a bit of a constitutional issue to execute Hewitt and not Charles. Although I would have personally advocated a glass half full attitude.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Not for treason, murder. Dubious as fuck of course, but not treason. (I think?)
edit, Casement was for treason, so maybe all? Dunno.
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
I think it was only Roger Casement who was executed for "treason" for conspiring with Germany?
The others were court martialled, so no real proper trial or charges I don't think, though it seems "aiding the enemy" (being Germany) in one case, "armed rebellion" I've found in another, and talk of the Defence of the Realm Act being used in another.
I'm sure there are people who here who know more than Wikipedia is telling me.
The others were court martialled, so no real proper trial or charges I don't think, though it seems "aiding the enemy" (being Germany) in one case, "armed rebellion" I've found in another, and talk of the Defence of the Realm Act being used in another.
I'm sure there are people who here who know more than Wikipedia is telling me.
not-bono-ever
meh
Haw Haw was Yank born ( then german though IIRC) but was hanged for treason cos he falsely applied for and got a brit passport . useless twat
he was going to be topped anyway whatever but treason is a a bit juicier for the headlines
not-bono-ever
meh
its the will of the people obvs
not-bono-ever
meh
bear in mind also the short lived treachery stuff enacted during WW2- you didnt have to be a Brit to be hanged for treachery, just being in britian and being a bit shifty was enough. semantics and shit obvs, but was meant to be a catch all for spies and stuff IIRC
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
So is the lack of noticeable outcry.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Course, it's the judges inevitably kow-towing to Brussels and deciding that anyone who was in IS should not stand trial in the States after all, but instead go to the top of the housing list where you live. Those are the real traitors.
not-bono-ever
meh
agree - this stuff isn't going away either- there seems to a rising pressure that requires some blood public letting. worrying
not-bono-ever
meh
Ireland was martial law at the time, so court martial was the process innit.made things an awful lot easier to prosecute the republicans.
not-bono-ever
meh
sorrry/ diversion - i find Treason & History a much more interesting subject than bloody brexit
carry on
etc
carry on
etc
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Two stateless cunts who were in 'the Beatles', who are not in the UK (so the UK would have no say in their extradition regardless of their citizenship), never gonna attract papal-audience-on-Copacabana-Beach style crowds calling for it to be stopped, tbf.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
I suspect the ‘leak’ of Javid’s message might have been done deliberately to try and flush out vocal injections from opposition parties, so that they could be portrayed as being on the side of the bad guys. Doesn’t look like anyone has waded into that trap. A few sober objections but nobody’s making a meal of it.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Corbyn's gonna need to avoid the BBC for the rest of time, though.
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