Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[agricola]

The level of stupidity and incompetence being shown by our glorious leaders is well and truly embarrassing.

The EU shouldn't be spared criticism either, if Barnier has really demanded the right to terminate contracts without compensation - certainly it will not have gone down well at EDF, DB, Sodexo, Capgemini etc. They do own or operate far more of our infrastructure than we do of theirs, after all.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

View attachment 124894 View attachment 124895

Leaked letter in FT of Davis whining that EU is - shock - preparing for Brexit.

Bunch of waffle dressed up as a plan, isn't it? 'increase engagement'? Isn't engagement with the EU just 'doing his job'. Other than that, his only suggestion is to get British businesses to lobby harder - 'Hey guys, can you do brexit for us? We're not doing it very well. "Brexit was not your idea," you say? Well perhaps not, but it is your problem.'

 

[MightyTibberton]

The EU shouldn't be spared criticism either, if Barnier has really demanded the right to terminate contracts without compensation - certainly it will not have gone down well at EDF, DB, Sodexo, Capgemini etc. They do own or operate far more of our infrastructure than we do of theirs, after all.

That seems a very big if.

 

[agricola]

That seems a very big if.

I can't really believe that they would threaten it either (given that the effect would be much worse on them than us) but they have not denied it.

 

[DotCommunist]

The EU shouldn't be spared criticism either, if Barnier has really demanded the right to terminate contracts without compensation - certainly it will not have gone down well at EDF, DB, Sodexo, Capgemini etc. They do own or operate far more of our infrastructure than we do of theirs, after all.

the whole edf shebang is an incompetent scandal of the first water. Heads should have rolled. I don't know whose heads, but heads. Paying through the nose year on year for a shonky reactor

 

[MightyTibberton]

I can't really believe that they would threaten it either (given that the effect would be much worse on them than us) but they have not denied it.

How will it be worse for them?

It'll be bad for those businesses, no doubt, but there are 27 EU countries, and they've made it clear they're not going to make loads of exceptions to the rules for the UK. I'm not a lawyer, but we're walking out of (this is in the case of a hypothetical No Deal at the moment) hundreds (thousands?) of systems that - for better or worse - are vital to our economy.

There's this Farage/Hannan fantasy that German car makers are going to rise up and say, "yes, let them keep all the trade stuff without any of the political things they don't like," and I think this is just a fantasy.

As a bonus, it looks like lots of lawyers are going to make shedloads of money off Brexit! Always a bright side!

 

[MightyTibberton]

EG:



But, people say, "oh, they won't really ground planes when it comes to it," but they fucking will! They have to, otherwise all their laws and systems are essentially meaningless.

 

[Raheem]

I can't really believe that they would threaten it either (given that the effect would be much worse on them than us) but they have not denied it.

What do you think Barnier should be doing? Should he be setting up a compensation fund for multinationals that face losing business because of Brexit?

 

[DotCommunist]

After Brexit, England will have to rethink its identity | Robert Winder

in between detailing the true horror of brexit- worldwide commentariat laughing at us (zut alors! I cannot stand the mockery!)
we get an odd treatise on englishness that includes this gem

As has often been said, modern England is a land of cricket matches and cathedral choirs; but it is also a land of pub darts, Indian saris and Islamic minarets.

'pub darts' yeah, whippets, flat caps and clogs as well mate.


also, my town is in a song the author of the piecve quotes
From Colwyn Bay to Kettering
They’re sobbing themselves to sleep.
Their shrieks and wails
In the Yorkshire dales

which is ...nice?

 

[agricola]

How will it be worse for them?

It'll be bad for those businesses, no doubt, but there are 27 EU countries, and they've made it clear they're not going to make loads of exceptions to the rules for the UK. I'm not a lawyer, but we're walking out of (this is in the case of a hypothetical No Deal at the moment) hundreds (thousands?) of systems that - for better or worse - are vital to our economy.

There's this Farage/Hannan fantasy that German car makers are going to rise up and say, "yes, let them keep all the trade stuff without any of the political things they don't like," and I think this is just a fantasy.

As a bonus, it looks like lots of lawyers are going to make shedloads of money off Brexit! Always a bright side!

That is the thing though - this isn't a Farage / Hannan fantasy, indeed I am sure the idea that they could unilaterally cancel pre-Brexit contracts solely because a firm wasn't based in the UK never even entered their tiny minds.

This is a threat from the EU side which, if reciprocated, would do much more damage to them than it would to us - the EDF nuclear deal alone is worth north of £40 billion - simply because their firms are far more entrenched in our economy and infrastructure than ours are in theirs. I find it very difficult to understand why Barnier has even brought it up.

 

[agricola]

What do you think Barnier should be doing? Should he be setting up a compensation fund for multinationals that face losing business because of Brexit?

Macron and previous French administrations have already been bailing out EDF.

 

[agricola]

the whole edf shebang is an incompetent scandal of the first water. Heads should have rolled. I don't know whose heads, but heads. Paying through the nose year on year for a shonky reactor

Instead they all got higher-paying jobs.

 

[Raheem]

Macron and previous French administrations have already been bailing out EDF.

And so..?

 

[agricola]

And so..?

... and so they'd have to bail them out even more.

 

[Smangus]

EG:

View attachment 124908

But, people say, "oh, they won't really ground planes when it comes to it," but they fucking will! They have to, otherwise all their laws and systems are essentially meaningless.

Finding it difficult to sympathise with Ryan Air (especially), any other of those companies mentioned or their shareholders tbh. fuck em.

 

[MightyTibberton]

That is the thing though - this isn't a Farage / Hannan fantasy, indeed I am sure the idea that they could unilaterally cancel pre-Brexit contracts solely because a firm wasn't based in the UK never even entered their tiny minds.

This is a threat from the EU side which, if reciprocated, would do much more damage to them than it would to us - the EDF nuclear deal alone is worth north of £40 billion - simply because their firms are far more entrenched in our economy and infrastructure than ours are in theirs. I find it very difficult to understand why Barnier has even brought it up.

Can you point me to somewhere where it is being reported that Barnier has threatened to void contracts illegally as part of the negotiations.

Wouldn't it be illegal to void contracts in the UK for overseas businesses?

What the EU is doing is ending access to EU-wide things to businesses that aren't in a country that is in the club aren't they? I can't see that they have any choice on that - fudging it all makes membership pointless.

The Farage/Hannan fantasy was - and remains, I think - that UK businesses were so important to the EU that they would offer us a super-duper deal that would essentially be membership of the single market but leaving us out of things that Farage and co don't like, chiefly, I suppose freedom of movement.

They've made it clear they're not going to do that. We can be like Norway or like Canada.

And, yes, fuck Ryan Air, and lots of these other companies, that example was shared as an example of how this is being reported outside the UK but doesn't seem to be being reported inside the UK and that real businesses are taking steps to mitigate what a lot of Brexit supporters are just dismissing as tosh.

 

[agricola]

Can you point me to somewhere where it is being reported that Barnier has threatened to void contracts illegally as part of the negotiations

It is mentioned in the Guardian piece and in a piece from the FT last year (admittedly as the EC being the ones demanding it, thoughBarnier is their chief negotiator of course) also Davis refers to it in his letter above.

Wouldn't it be illegal to void contracts in the UK for overseas businesses?

At the moment it probably would be, though that would change if it had been brought in by the rest of the EU as threatened.

 

[MightyTibberton]

Thank you! I can't read the FT one I'm afraid as I'm not a subscriber.

But the Guardian one just mentions jeopardising existing contracts as does Davis' (I've got a big felt-tip pen!) letter.

Surely this just means stuff like "passporting" for financial services doesn't it? They do business in the EU on the basis of a piece of paper granted to them because of the UK's membership of the EU. We're leaving the EU. No more piece of paper. No more business. The same with that road haulage thing. No more EU. No more membership of that scheme. They treat us like any Finnish or Argentinian trucker. That seems perfectly legit and straight forward. And these are hypotheticals based on a no-deal scenario that our government has started mouthing off about.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Thank you! I can't read the FT one I'm afraid as I'm not a subscriber.

But the Guardian one just mentions jeopardising existing contracts as does Davis' (I've got a big felt-tip pen!) letter.

Surely this just means stuff like "passporting" for financial services doesn't it? They do business in the EU on the basis of a piece of paper granted to them because of the UK's membership of the EU. We're leaving the EU. No more piece of paper. No more business. The same with that road haulage thing. No more EU. No more membership of that scheme. They treat us like any Finnish or Argentinian trucker. That seems perfectly legit and straight forward. And these are hypotheticals based on a no-deal scenario that our government has started mouthing off about.

Finland is in the EU.

 

[MightyTibberton]

I was a bit worried that it might be, Mr Railway Station Street (I know enough about Europe to speak two words of German!). . . I am very much not an expert on any of this. . .

And, I seem to remember Argentina being proposed for membership of the Six Nations European rugby tournament, so perhaps they could join too!

 

[Supine]

The EU shouldn't be spared criticism either, if Barnier has really demanded the right to terminate contracts without compensation - certainly it will not have gone down well at EDF, DB, Sodexo, Capgemini etc. They do own or operate far more of our infrastructure than we do of theirs, after all.

Your missing the point to an extent. The letter on page 1 mentions the disappointment in the EU specifying Qualified Persons must be located in Europe after brexit. This isn't a case of the EU terminating contracts early, it's a legal requirement based on the UK triggering article 50.

We have brought it on ourselves and pharma companies will need the next year and a bit to put alternative arrangements in place. It'll be greatly damaging to the UK but is self inflicted. Legally UK pharma companies will not be able to release batches of medicines for sale in Europe anymore.

For Davis to say it's premature to start implementing is idiotic.

 

[bemused]

Davis and Hammond make plea to Germany in pursuit of Brexit deal

Standby for corporation tax cuts to offset any costs to transact with the EU.

 

[DotCommunist]

notes:
Article 50 exists so that countries can make a departure from the EU should their electorate decide so

The EU and its people handling brexit are non-ideological. They are the face of implacable fairness. Britain is merely throwing toys from pram, and deserves the firm guidance of an EU willing to make us a warning to others.

At no point can a mention of EU instransigence and obstacle throwing be termed so. They are realists, everyone else is not (that means you to smelly prole, now reap the rewards of your ignorance!)

theres a very disgusting liberal bootlicker line of thought in this isn't there

 

[MightyTibberton]

This government is doing exactly that.

They're taking things that are completely run-of-the-mill consequences of Brexit - no longer being in EU institutions - and running around like it's some sort of freshly hatched plot against Britain.

Are you calling David Davis a "smelly prole"?

What should the government do then? What should the EU do? What should the Labour Party do? What should a communist do?

 

[teuchter]

I don't think anyone's said that the EU's people handling Brexit are non-ideological, or "implacably fair", are they?

The EU's people are doing what anyone could expect - negotiating in the interests of the EU.

 

[Winot]

I don't think anyone's said that the EU's people handling Brexit are non-ideological, or "implacably fair", are they?

The EU's people are doing what anyone could expect - negotiating in the interests of the EU.

They are also following the process which is an inevitable result of the UK's triggering Article 50. Now you could argue that the way the EU is set up is wrong, that the process for leaving is wrong and that the UK should never have agreed to it in the future. But given that the UK did agree to all that, it is bound to now follow the process.

Of course, there were different ways of handling Brexit, but the UK government chose to do it this way.

 

[Supine]

notes:
Article 50 exists so that countries can make a departure from the EU should their electorate decide so

The EU and its people handling brexit are non-ideological. They are the face of implacable fairness. Britain is merely throwing toys from pram, and deserves the firm guidance of an EU willing to make us a warning to others.

At no point can a mention of EU instransigence and obstacle throwing be termed so. They are realists, everyone else is not (that means you to smelly prole, now reap the rewards of your ignorance!)

theres a very disgusting liberal bootlicker line of thought in this isn't there

I'd say that was spot on

 

[Crispy]

Quite apart from any notions of "fairness" or "reasonableness" the simple weight of numbers favours the 27. These negotiations are confrontational and they are by far the biggest guy in the room. What did anyone expect?

 

[Winot]

Quite apart from any notions of "fairness" or "reasonableness" the simple weight of numbers favours the 27. These negotiations are confrontational and they are by far the biggest guy in the room. What did anyone expect?

I think that depends on the identity of the 'anyone'.

 

[DotCommunist]

Lol at the hard headed realists sagely nodding.

I don't think anyone's said that the EU's people handling Brexit are non-ideological, or "implacably fair", are they?

Its in every word of discussion about these ongoing negotiations. You will now of course deny this. The fact that its taken as non-ideological is why it isn't mentioned. Why would you? This is all perfectly normal. lol