Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[redsquirrel]

This is the bit that I think is weakest. Perhaps I'm overly pessimistic. Common physicality, common fabric and stark clarity of the issues made it comparatively easy in the past.

Sorry but that's nonsense. Look at the struggle to set up trade unions, people went to jail, they died for that fight. The Charists didn't have it easy, trade unionists didn't have it easy, the Russian workers didn't have it easy.

Working class organisation has always been made in the teeth of opposition from capital, but the w/c have continually found new ways to bring the fight back to capital. That doesn't just mean people should twiddle their thumbs wan wait for the inevitability of socialism but it does mean that they should take inspiration from the activities of the w/c and the new directions for fight they open up

 

[mauvais]

Sorry but that's nonsense. Look at the struggle to set up trade unions, people went to jail, they died for that fight. The Charists didn't have it easy, trade unionists didn't have it easy, the Russian workers didn't have it easy.

Working class organisation has always been made in the teeth of opposition from capitial.

This is what I mean about your propensity for disagreement. Obviously, I don't mean that actually achieving anything was easy, it clearly wasn't - but that it was easy (easier) to associate and organise in order to have that fight in the first place.

 

[redsquirrel]

But that's still nonsense, there have been past laws that have specifically banned the w/c from meeting and organising together and yet working class self-organisation still occurred.

Working class organisation and insurgency are the only forces that have brought about the changes I want, they are the only forces that are capable of bringing about change for the better. Maybe that organisation and insurgency will be structured through the LP, maybe not. But either way it won't have been the LP that has brought about such changes anymore than it was the LP that created the welfare state.

 

[Pickman's model]

But that's still nonsense, there have been past laws that have specifically banned the w/c from meeting and organising together and yet working class self-organisation still occurred.

Working class organisation and insurgency are the only forces that have brought about the changes I want, they are the only forces that are capable of bringing about change for the better. Maybe that organisation and insurgency will be structured through the LP, maybe not. But either way it won't have been the LP that has brought about such changes anymore than it was the LP that created the welfare state.

if people placed their faith in labour without taking action themselves there'd have been a poll tax till at least 1997

 

[Ranbay]

Dear Ranbay,

Last week’s agreement on phase one of the Brexit talks seemed to suggest that ‘full alignment’ with the European Single Market and the Customs Union could be the shape of the final deal between the UK and the EU.

If this is the case, the UK could be heading towards a Brexit in name only, with significant implications for the property market, given some investors had been voiding the UK for fear of a ‘cliff edge’ exit. If the flow of news next year appears to confirm that a soft Brexit is emerging as the most likely option, we would expect interest in UK real estate to increase quickly.



___________________


just got this from work.....

 

[Pickman's model]

Dear Ranbay,

Last week’s agreement on phase one of the Brexit talks seemed to suggest that ‘full alignment’ with the European Single Market and the Customs Union could be the shape of the final deal between the UK and the EU.

If this is the case, the UK could be heading towards a Brexit in name only, with significant implications for the property market, given some investors had been voiding the UK for fear of a ‘cliff edge’ exit. If the flow of news next year appears to confirm that a soft Brexit is emerging as the most likely option, we would expect interest in UK real estate to increase quickly.



___________________


just got this from work.....

from what was being said on this morning's today programme the logic of no hard border in ireland or the irish sea is staying in the sm & cu. so there may be some unhappiness ahead. the more things change, the more they stay the same

 

[Winot]

It sounds like you think the working class will inevitably organise to foment Marxist revolution redsquirrel and there's nothing that needs to be done in the meantime. That seems a bit jam tomorrow for the people struggling with high rents, low wages etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

It sounds like you think the working class will inevitably organise to foment Marxist revolution redsquirrel and there's nothing that needs to be done in the meantime. That seems a bit jam tomorrow for the people struggling with high rents, low wages etc.

did you read #3538?

here, have another look:

Sorry but that's nonsense. Look at the struggle to set up trade unions, people went to jail, they died for that fight. The Charists didn't have it easy, trade unionists didn't have it easy, the Russian workers didn't have it easy.

Working class organisation has always been made in the teeth of opposition from capital, but the w/c have continually found new ways to bring the fight back to capital. That doesn't just mean people should twiddle their thumbs wan wait for the inevitability of socialism but it does mean that they should take inspiration from the activities of the w/c and the new directions for fight they open up

 

[mauvais]

But that's still nonsense, there have been past laws that have specifically banned the w/c from meeting and organising together and yet working class self-organisation still occurred.

Working class organisation and insurgency are the only forces that have brought about the changes I want, they are the only forces that are capable of bringing about change for the better. Maybe that organisation and insurgency will be structured through the LP, maybe not. But either way it won't have been the LP that has brought about such changes anymore than it was the LP that created the welfare state.

You are still interpreting all of this in a way that best offers disagreement. I'm well aware of the barriers to freedom of association, organisation of labour, and so on - but my point has been entirely about the natural ability to assemble and cooperate, because you know, live alongside and permanently work alongside people with a directly aligned interest. Whether the state & capital tries to stop you doing so is something else, and to a large extent independent of the former - I mean, they can do that now on top of the problems of getting people together in the first place.

 

[DotCommunist]

You are still interpreting all of this in a way that best offers disagreement. I'm well aware of the barriers to freedom of association, organisation of labour, and so on - but my point has been entirely about the natural ability to assemble and cooperate, because you know, live alongside and permanently work alongside people with a directly aligned interest. Whether the state & capital tries to stop you doing so is something else, and to a large extent independent of the former - I mean, they can do that now on top of the problems of getting people together in the first place.

and yet here we are, discussing sedition on a device the peterloo dead would have seen as devilry. Swings &

 

[MightyTibberton]

Dear Ranbay,

Last week’s agreement on phase one of the Brexit talks seemed to suggest that ‘full alignment’ with the European Single Market and the Customs Union could be the shape of the final deal between the UK and the EU.

If this is the case, the UK could be heading towards a Brexit in name only, with significant implications for the property market, given some investors had been voiding the UK for fear of a ‘cliff edge’ exit. If the flow of news next year appears to confirm that a soft Brexit is emerging as the most likely option, we would expect interest in UK real estate to increase quickly.



___________________


just got this from work.....

I reckon there will be a "Hard Brexit" revolt against this flow at some point...

 

[Pickman's model]

You are still interpreting all of this in a way that best offers disagreement. I'm well aware of the barriers to freedom of association, organisation of labour, and so on - but my point has been entirely about the natural ability to assemble and cooperate, because you know, live alongside and permanently work alongside people with a directly aligned interest. Whether the state & capital tries to stop you doing so is something else, and to a large extent independent of the former - I mean, they can do that now on top of the problems of getting people together in the first place.

the first mention of a 'job for life' i could find in the times is in a letter from the 1920s. so this permanently work alongside bit is of very recent creation: and there were only five or six mentions of the notion in the times before the second world war. yet in the nineteenth century people who didn't have jobs for life were able to work together: and they didn't have to live right beside each other to do it. a more recent case in point: the anti-poll tax movement. people from a wide range of backgrounds, employment statuses (stati?) and locations came together to resist the community charge. i don't know what's given you the notion that you have to live beside or work with someone to have a hope of assembling and cooperating with them, it's just not borne out by my political experience in a range of movements from (as mentioned) the poll tax, through the anarchist and anti-fascist movements to prisoner solidarity.

 

[Pickman's model]

and yet here we are, discussing sedition on a device the peterloo dead would have seen as devilry. Swings &

captain swings

 

[Yossarian]

I reckon there will be a "Hard Brexit" revolt against this flow at some point...

UKIP are slowly edging back up in the polls again, though still only at 5%.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

If we get lexit from the brexit which was engineered by those wanting to turn the UK into the USA then this will be change in the teeth of opposition from capital. The polital landscape is changing faster today than anybody ever expected. In 2015 we had the prospect of centre right Tory government for the foreseeable future with a left wing Labour party in the political wilderness. Now we have a definitely electable Corbyn led Labour government in waiting. I think we are doing ok.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Dear Ranbay,

Last week’s agreement on phase one of the Brexit talks seemed to suggest that ‘full alignment’ with the European Single Market and the Customs Union could be the shape of the final deal between the UK and the EU.

If this is the case, the UK could be heading towards a Brexit in name only, with significant implications for the property market, given some investors had been voiding the UK for fear of a ‘cliff edge’ exit. If the flow of news next year appears to confirm that a soft Brexit is emerging as the most likely option, we would expect interest in UK real estate to increase quickly.



___________________


just got this from work.....

I think brexit in name only was always going to be the end result.

 

[MightyTibberton]

It’s a deal – on Brexit phase one

An analysis of the "deal" so far.

 

[MightyTibberton]

UKIP are slowly edging back up in the polls again, though still only at 5%.

This whole bloody thing is practically speaking the result of an internal Tory party rift!

UKIP drained off anti-EU voters (also from Labour, yep), give UKIP what they want to get those voters back (yep, also to Lab). They get what they want! But it'll never be enough because the more centrist/pro-EU Tories in parliament aren't going to give them a Hard Brexit that they know will cause a major economic shock.

So the row will continue...

 

[teuchter]

OK, leaving aside whether that's true of him individually, you're suggesting it's also true of a wider group of posters here. I don't recognise that. I recognise that there are people who see a parliamentary road to socialism and some who don't, but I don't think it's fair to say the latter are "dismissive" and the former not; you yourself were pretty dismissive about a "commitment to grass-roots activism". And fair enough: you don't have to see it as a way forward, but why is that not "dismissive"?

Yup it's true that I am dismissive of responses to the question of what can/should be done that I see as vague or ineffectual, and maybe there is some kind of hypocrisy there. But I'm not someone with a strong political position. I'm a perennial waverer. I know some people find that despicable, but that's just how it is. I am constantly persuaded by different arguments. I'm not someone who's deeply well read in political theory and history, and I don't feel that I can know anything with enough certainty to be strongly committed to a certain ideology. I don't claim to have a coherent approach to political questions. I guess I hold others on here to a different standard because the tone in which they post is one of certainty. And it's that certainty, I think which feeds into their confident judgement of others' moral character and motivations, which is something that I think is a bigger problem than that of dismissing others' suggestions without offering an alternative.

I should say that it's not something you do danny la rouge. I have a lot of respect for your posting style, the amount of thought that you put into what you write, and your ability to disagree with people without it turning into a personal hate-fest or petty bickering. You're an example to us all.

 

[Humirax]

The Prime Minister has recorded a Brexit-themed festive album in an attempt to raise funds for the UK’s EU divorce bill.

The PR stunt is also designed to improve the mood of the nation after a series of Brexit cock-ups, misinformation and negotiating incompetence.

A Tory spokesman said, “Brexit’s turning out to be bloody expensive so we’re taking a leaf out of Bob Geldof’s book and raising money via a hastily recorded seasonal record.

“Also, even people who voted for Brexit are apparently starting to think that leaving the EU might not be the best idea after all, which is far from ideal. So to cheer everyone up we’re releasing an album of jaunty, feel-good songs about how great Brexit is.

“Yes, we’ve basically taken a number of well known Christmas songs and shoe-horned ‘Brexit’ into the lyrics. We don’t think the electorate will notice though – they’re generally not very bright and we’re very good at pulling the wool over their eyes.”

Mrs May sings lead on most of the tracks with backing vocals provided by the Maybots: Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and David Davis.

The album will be called ‘A Brexit Gift for You’ and the full tracklisting is as follows:

• I Wish it Could Be Brexit Everyday
• White Brexit (lead vocal: Boris Johnson)
• Driving Home for Brexit
• Brexit Blunderland (lead vocal: David Davis)
• Brexit is Coming to Town
• Do They Know it’s Brexit?
• Brexit Island
• Last Brexit
• Little Brexit Boy
• Thank God it’s Brexit (lead vocal: Jacob Rees-Mogg)
• Have Yourself a Merry Little Brexit

 

[teuchter]

so i have been so unpragmatic over the years as to not sign petitions, to not suggest people join unions, not to suggest people go on demonstrations, to not suggest people in unions ask their branches to donate to for example the orgreave justice campaign, i'm fairly certain i've advised people to contact councillors and mps to get things changed.

Buried amongst your many thousands of snarky posts, yes you may have proposed things like going on demonstrations and writing letters. But they don't exactly float to the surface in my reading of your body of work on here.

Not very exciting proposals though if you don't mind my saying so. The sort of things I might suggest myself.

 

[Pickman's model]

Buried amongst your many thousands of snarky posts, yes you may have proposed things like going on demonstrations and writing letters. But they don't exactly float to the surface in my reading of your body of work on here.

Not very exciting proposals though if you don't mind my saying so. The sort of things I might suggest myself.

Yeh. First you denounce me for not being pragmatic then when I show I have been it's not good enough. You're full of shit, teuchter.

e2a: i've always supported a diversity of tactics. people should use every option available to them, whichever one works best. sometimes it's lobbying and petitions, sometimes it's violence on the streets. you won't win if you keep using a hammer for a job that wants a screwdriver, chuck.

 

[sealion]

Also, even people who voted for Brexit are apparently starting to think that leaving the EU might not be the best idea after all,

The same as people who voted remain are seeing what cunts the eu really are

 

[gosub]

The same as people who voted remain are seeing what cunts the eu really are

Nah, they are too busy working on their time machines to take us back to EUtopia

 

[Supine]

Nah, they are too busy working on their time machines to take us back to EUtopia

Some of us are rubbing our crystal balls and seeing a future where brexit didn't actually happen

 

[Streathamite]

so there may be some unhappiness ahead. the more things change

Yup: massed ranks of UKIPpers, daily heil readers and other brexiters going absolutely apoca-ballistic!

 

[Pickman's model]

Yup: massed ranks of UKIPpers, daily heil readers and other brexiters going absolutely apoca-ballistic!

Super nige has gone ballistic, his politics are atrocious

 

[Humirax]

The same as people who voted remain are seeing what cunts the eu really are

I'm well aware that cunts rise to the top with good old capitalism- you don't have to tell me that.

 

[Humirax]

If we get lexit from the brexit which was engineered by those wanting to turn the UK into the USA then this will be change in the teeth of opposition from capital. The polital landscape is changing faster today than anybody ever expected. In 2015 we had the prospect of centre right Tory government for the foreseeable future with a left wing Labour party in the political wilderness. Now we have a definitely electable Corbyn led Labour government in waiting. I think we are doing ok.

So Corbyn is anti-capitalist? Is that what you are saying? If that is what you believe then you are in for an unpleasant suprise. Folks got all exited over Obama- and look what happened there, no doubt Corbyn will be a simliar kind of let down.

 

[SpackleFrog]

So Corbyn is anti-capitalist? Is that what you are saying? If that is what you believe then you are in for an unpleasant suprise. Folks got all exited over Obama- and look what happened there, no doubt Corbyn will be a simliar kind of let down.

Share your cynicism to an extent but Obama and Corbyn is hardly a relevant comparison.