Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[redsquirrel]

And this criticism of the lack of democracy doesn't just extend to Westminster/Brussels/the local council, how many people can say that there aren't criticisms of the lack of democracy in their workplace. That senior managers aren't criticised for ignoring the ideas and desires of staff.

 

[mather]

they are the only time the electorate is asked a straight question tbf.

Which is why so many liberals hate the idea of referendums, they give us more power than any vote in an election.

 

[teuchter]

I don't think it's "leftwing theory" to say that it's a bad idea to introduce competency tests before people are allowed to vote. And I don't think it's obscure or academic-y to say the suggestion comes from a worryingly anti-democratic tendency. Quite the reverse, in fact!

I think SaskiaJayne was talking about the contents of the bumped thread rather than A380's voter exam suggestion, which I don't think was a very serious one.

 

[bimble]

The Swiss, with their very frequent referendums, you (every citizen) get a big pile of paper in the post with an introduction to the issues and the main arguments set out by each side. Nobody is forced to read any of it obvs.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I don't think it's "leftwing theory" to say that it's a bad idea to introduce competency tests before people are allowed to vote. And I don't think it's obscure or academic-y to say the suggestion comes from a worryingly anti-democratic tendency. Quite the reverse, in fact!

Tbf Danny I wasn’t really seeing any of that as serious discussion. Nobody is going to introduce competency tests before anybody is alowed to vote in the UK although one might argue the voting age limit is in itself a competency test & could be lowered.

So what am I trying to get across? It’s this. If people want change they need to vote for change. On this forum we discuss stuff & post links to interesting political theory. However, the vast majority of voters do not do politics & they do not read the sort of informative political stuff in the links that get posted on here. So their politics will not be influenced by reading the sometimes very complex stuff that is available online.

I think most people’s politics comes from what is going on around them in their day to day lives. What they read in the papers if they read papers or what they discuss on social media & with family & work colleauges perhaps? So voting patterns will not be influenced by reading about politics in other countries & other times but by what is happening now in their lives. Does that make sense?

 

[teuchter]

And isn't "liberals" a bit of a lazy term?

ie. one of those things that people (esp on u75) like to call other people, but few would describe themselves as such, and if they did, it would have a different meaning to them?

 

[mather]

How about referenda, but in order to vote on each one, something like the electoral commission comes up with a bank of questions to see if you have a GCSE level of understanding about the issue. So when people wanted to vote they would need to ave an idea or study what was going on.

Eg for the EU one:

Is the European Court of Justice an EU institution?

Is the European Parliament elected?

Etc.

Here it is, the liberal middle class hatred of the idea that working class people have an equal vote to them. Because behind all the bullshit sophistry of this twats arguement, this policy would end up having the effect of disenfranchising working class voters to the benefit of the middle classes, which is exactly why such arguements are made.

 

[redsquirrel]

However, the vast majority of voters do not do politics

You keep saying this but it is absolute nonsense. Indeed you immediately contradict yourself when you say

I think most people’s politics comes from what is going on around them in their day to day lives. What they read in the papers if they read papers or what they discuss on social media & with family & work colleauges perhaps? So voting patterns will not be influenced by reading about politics in other countries & other times but by what is happening now in their lives.

Politics is not going to the polls once every four years (or even every year), it's not about supporting the red or the blue team. Politics is about how we work, how we live, how we interact with other people. And people are absolutely familiar with the lack of control they have over their lives, how decisions in their communities and workplaces are made without any input by them and often to their detriment. People "do" politics constantly.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Lets try again. The majority of people do not do politics as in reading & studying it. The do not read poltical history or political theory. Their politics comes from their day to to day lives. As we apparently are both in agreement with. Which why I alluded to your thread & pointed out most people don’t read that sort of stuff.

 

[redsquirrel]

Most people might not read political history or post on a thread about political theory but they are intimately aware of the fact that their workplace isn't democratic, that their community isn't democratic, that the society they live in isn't democratic. They may express such opinions in a different form but it's genuinely crazy to suggest that the overwhelming majority of people in this country, or any other, aren't aware that they don't have real meaningful input into the decisions that affect them.

For god's sake one of the reasons for the leave vote winning was precisely because so many people felt this lack of democracy.

 

[A380]

Here it is, the liberal middle class hatred of the idea that working class people have an equal vote to them. Because behind all the bullshit sophistry of this twats arguement, this policy would end up having the effect of disenfranchising working class voters to the benefit of the middle classes, which is exactly why such arguements are made.

I think my mistake was having more faith in the working classes than you do.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Most people might not read political history or post on a thread about political theory but they are intimately aware of the fact that their workplace isn't democratic, that their community isn't democratic, that the society they live in isn't democratic. They may express such opinions in a different form but it's genuinely crazy to suggest that the overwhelming majority of people in this country, or any other, aren't aware that they don't have real meaningful input into the decisions that affect them.

For god's sake one of the reasons for the leave vote winning was precisely because so many people felt this lack of democracy.

If I ask most people I know. Friends, neighbours etc if they do politics they will say no. They will say all politicians are as bad as each other & that they have zero interest in politics. Yes they are aware they have no input into decisions that affect them which is why they say they do not do politics & they have little interest in voting. Most never vote in local elections because they feel their vote will have no influence on local decisions. Some will vote in general elections & much more of them voted in the referendum because they felt more strongly about it than general election results. Most voted leave & most gave reasons along the lines of not wanting EU input into UK law & taking back control of borders.

All of which is of course political but but my friends & neighbours would deny it because by their own admissions they do not do politics. I wonder what they would say if I told them they were doing politics?

 

[mather]

I think my mistake was having more faith in the working classes than you do.

Yeah, because the working classes exist solely for the purpose of sustaining your faith, you smug, entitled, arrogant twat.

You know they people I despise the most are people like you. Read most things in media or comments on internet and you will find that the majority of anti working class comments now comes from the likes of you. Honestly at this rate it is better to ask if the working class should have any faith in the left, given that it has been hijacked by the middle classes which focuses solely on the pet obsessions.

 

[planetgeli]

Here it is, the liberal middle class hatred of the idea that working class people have an equal vote to them. Because behind all the bullshit sophistry of this twats arguement, this policy would end up having the effect of disenfranchising working class voters to the benefit of the middle classes, which is exactly why such arguements are made.

Nice of you to assume the working class are less politically educated than the middle class. You condescending fuckwit.

 

[mather]

Nice of you to assume the working class are less politically educated than the middle class. You condescending fuckwit.

I did nothing of the sort, I'm not the one calling for a voter qualification system. A system that has a proven record of disenfranchising working class and poorer people, which is exactly why he wants it.

 

[planetgeli]

I did nothing of the sort, I'm not the one calling for a voter qualification system. A system that has a proven record of disenfranchising working class and poorer people, which is exactly why he wants it.

You said a policy that set some sort of political awareness test would disenfranchise the working class. The only logical conclusion of this is you equate working class with stupid and middle class with clever.

I find that offensive.

 

[mojo pixy]

At the risk of muddying the waters, there's a big difference between stupid and uninformed. A lot of clever people are uninformed IME. How exactly that relates to class seems complicated, to say the least.

 

[A380]

I did nothing of the sort, I'm not the one calling for a voter qualification system. A system that has a proven record of disenfranchising working class and poorer people, which is exactly why he wants it.

Nor did I. Read the idea. Nothing about a limited franchise. Just about having executive referenda.

At least the other posters on here are are actually attacking my idea not some straw man they have constructed.

As to smug, arrogent and entitled. Well you’re right on the first two! But I don’t think you know me. So play the ball not the player.

I’m not entitled though. My parents gave my childhood working for the revolution that never came. They gave me love and warmth and my left wing politics but nothing material.

I thought we attacked ideas on this part of the board, not our own stereotyped opinions of who and what other posters are?

 

[Supine]

Some people can be stupid and uninformed. They could also be from any class.

 

[A380]

You said a policy that set some sort of political awareness test would disenfranchise the working class. The only logical conclusion of this is you equate working class with stupid and middle class with clever.

I find that offensive.

Me too! It’s bollocks. I trust my class, the working class.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I’m trying to get a handle on this working class/middle class thing from the pov of where I live in north Essex. Plenty of people around me are builders. Some are very wealthy. They have built up portfolios of buy to let properties by shrewd buying decisions over they decades but they still install kitchens & bathrooms on a daily basis. They also employ people. Others are less wealthy & work on their own doing small jobs concreting etc. But they are all mates & all drink in the same pub at the end of the day. They would all call themselves working class I think.

Plenty of retired people about living in paid for houses with imaculate gardens & new cars in the drive. I don’t know whether they would call themselves middle class or not. I think they would if you asked them but they might tell you all they have was achieved by hard work in their working lives.

Rather than working class or middle class one could perhaps divide the divided UK into the older house owners who were able to buy their own houses at a time it was feasible for a working person to buy their own house & the younger working people who might describe themselves as either middle or working class but share the common bond of paying high percentages of their wages or salaries to the rentiers for homes they will never own.

As for the “politically educated” these might be people who find politics fascinating rather than boring & could describe themselves working class or middle class as they wish.

 

[mather]

You said a policy that set some sort of political awareness test would disenfranchise the working class. The only logical conclusion of this is you equate working class with stupid and middle class with clever.

I find that offensive.

So you don't think that such a system/test would mean that someone with a degree in politics or EU law would have an advantage over someone who doesn't have one? With uni fees at £9000 a year, uni is out of bounds for most working class young people. Not because they are any less intelligent but because having less money, time and support means that you cannot take full advantages of what education offers.

 

[mojo pixy]

Class isn't really about feels and describing oneself, it's functional. I mean, Alan Sugar might feel working class, but he's clearly not. A call-centre worker with a comfy flat and a nice car and a collar and tie can feel middle class, but they're as working class as someone who works on a production line or in a warehouse.

 

[discokermit]

Nice of you to assume the working class are less politically educated than the middle class. You condescending fuckwit.

put it another way, working class people are less likely to pass a test set by the middle class, for the middle class, in the language of the middle class.

 

[A380]

Nice of you to assume the working class are less politically educated than the middle class. You condescending fuckwit.

This as well. Over the course of my involvement with the left there does seem to be a certain cadre of people who don’t actually have any faith in the intelligence of their fellow workers.
I don’t know if Mather is one of those or not though. I hope not.

 

[redsquirrel]

put it another way, working class people are less likely to pass a test set by the middle class, for the middle class, in the language of the middle class.

Yes it's nonsense to suggest such a test wouldn't disenfranchise the working class, that's the whole point of such proposals. That's how they've been used in the past.

EDIT:

That kind of trust is not just unjustified, it’s borderline insane. No sensible person thinks majority opinion is a good guide to best practice in health, education, engineering, or pretty much everything else. So why would public policy be any exception?

See this crap, it's whole basis is to make politics a specialist subject, only to be practised by those with the 'correct' knowledge.

 

[A380]

put it another way, working class people are less likely to pass a test set by the middle class, for the middle class, in the language of the middle class.

I’m not sure my proposal would work in our current system. Obviously you would aspire for it to be fair.

Perhaps it’s an idea for one part of the system of how we govern ourselves post capitalism?

 

[planetgeli]

So you don't think that such a system/test would mean that someone with a degree in politics or EU law would have an advantage over someone who doesn't have one? With uni fees at £9000 a year, uni is out of bounds for most working class young people. Not because they are any less intelligent but because having less money, time and support means that you cannot take full advantages of what education offers.

Oh ffs. Do you honestly think he was narrowing this down to those with degrees in EU law and politics? (And btfuckingway, I have a degree in politics and was born and bred in council house poverty.) I’m not interested in current tuition fees, which obviously discriminate against the working class. But you are defining intelligence and awareness in terms of middle class, clever, working class, thick, which is offensive. There are all sorts of ways the working class get educated enough in politics, beyond your crude graduate test. Stop being so fucking condescending.

 

[planetgeli]

put it another way, working class people are less likely to pass a test set by the middle class, for the middle class, in the language of the middle class.

Yes. But he’s not putting it ‘another way’. He just has some crude notion of what intelligence is, what political awareness is and how it’s gained by the working class, and, above all, that the working class can’t pass tests and the middle class can.

Fuck that.

 

[mojo pixy]

There should have been public meetings and only people who registered to vote at a public meeting could vote. Maybe.