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IRA worship

In Bloom

Joyless and full of hate
Why is it that so many left-wingers and anarchists get so excited over the IRA? I mean, they're a bunch of nationalist twats who went round bombing totally innocent people, what's so wonderful about that?

And before anybody starts, the Unionists and the British army are no better, but they don't seem to enjoy the same sort of hero-worship that the IRA do on here.
 
If you are learning Spanish then why not pop along to the Basque country, I'm sure they'll find your opinions most enlightening ;)
 
In Bloom said:
Why is it that so many left-wingers and anarchists get so excited over the IRA? I mean, they're a bunch of nationalist twats who went round bombing totally innocent people, what's so wonderful about that?

first of all, that's an extremely simplistic statement...

secondly i don't know about worship, i do understand why people support them, and why people support the loyalists as well...

thirdly for some people i suspect it's because it's the nearest armed insurrection to britain and therefore exciting
 
silentNate said:
If you are learning Spanish then why not pop along to the Basque country, I'm sure they'll find your opinions most enlightening ;)
He might well find a sympathetic hearing among the 90%+ of people in the Basque Country who oppose ETA's campaign of murder.
 
rednblack said:
first of all, that's an extremely simplistic statement...

secondly i don't know about worship, i do understand why people support them, and why people support the loyalists as well...

thirdly for some people i suspect it's because it's the nearest armed insurrection to britain and therefore exciting

i agree with the first two, i don't think armed conflict excites people, doesn't excite me anyhow

there's also the romantic idea of liberation, freedom fighters, i was brought up listening to irish rebels songs, my uncles sang them (mostly when they were drunk) the unionists afaik don't have the same tradition....
 
rednblack said:
first of all, that's an extremely simplistic statement...
Simplistic perhaps, but also pertinent, IMO. The IRA killed ordinary people just going about their business, with absolutely nothing to do with their "struggle" and there is absolutely nothing to justify that.

thirdly for some people i suspect it's because it's the nearest armed insurrection to britain and therefore exciting
Yeah, I think that about covers it, really.
 
nino_savatte said:
Aye, but the British Army has also killed innocent people and so have the Loyalist thugs.
And before anybody starts, the Unionists are no better, but they don't seem to enjoy the same sort of hero-worship that the IRA do on here
;)
 
marty21 said:
there's also the romantic idea of liberation, freedom fighters, i was brought up listening to irish rebels songs, my uncles sang them (mostly when they were drunk) the unionists afaik don't have the same tradition....
No? ...but there's drunken singing of the Sash and other nastier songs the names of which I don't know...
 
JHE said:
No? ...but there's drunken singing of the Sash and other nastier songs the names of which I don't know...

i did say afaik...i'm no expert on unionist songs :)
 
In Bloom said:
Why is it that so many left-wingers and anarchists get so excited over the IRA?

On a more serious point, the basic premise of your question is complete shit.

As any English/Scottish/Welsh person who was actively involved in Irish politics will tell you, the left (along with the bulk of the British public) never gave much of a shit about the struggle in Ireland and anarchists spent most of their time calling the IRA 'green fascists'

So where is this excitement?

Serious question.

john x
 
In Bloom said:
Why is it that so many left-wingers and anarchists get so excited over the IRA? I mean, they're a bunch of nationalist twats who went round bombing totally innocent people, what's so wonderful about that?

And before anybody starts, the Unionists and the British army are no better, but they don't seem to enjoy the same sort of hero-worship that the IRA do on here.

The struggle as the time was a necessity - built out of the circumstances forced upon those who fought back.

Did the left hero worship the IRA? No, critical support, although those such as Bobby Sands who starved themselves dead for political principles are regarded as matrys - and rightly so.

Some of the actions carried out by the IRA were despicable. There's no doubt about that. For many of the early years they were far from the effecient organisation that they seem to have become famous for. Mistakes were made. Innocent people were killed. But that, as far as I'm concerned, is the price of war. And it was a war forced upon them, not the other way around.

As for their politics - obviously, they were Irish nationalists, but left-wing too. A struggle like that politicises people, and now large sections of the working class in Ireland - both north and south - are the most progressive in western Europe.
 
john x said:
On a more serious point, the basic premise of your question is complete shit.

As any English/Scottish/Welsh person who was actively involved in Irish politics will tell you, the left (along with the bulk of the British public) never gave much of a shit about the struggle in Ireland and anarchists spent most of their time calling the IRA 'green fascists'

So where is this excitement?

Serious question.

john x

Oh dooooooo get over yourself.

There can be no doubt that, among some who consider themselves to be left wing, there is an element of absurd juvenile fascniation with the whole Robin Hood-esqe romantic image of the glorious freedom fighter.

The best examples here are probably our friends Cathal Marcs, Pickmans Model, Cemertyone and the absent Ernestolynch.

God bless 'em, sure they're just having fun - aren't you boys?! :D

(Pst - maybe you're a bit of a secret lemonade drinker yourself Johhny? ;) )
 
fanta said:
There can be no doubt that, among some who consider themselves to be left wing, there is an element of absurd juvenile fascniation with the whole Robin Hood-esqe romantic image of the glorious freedom fighter.

I don't think there's anything romantic about it at all - go to Northern Ireland and you'll see that the struggle is very, very real.
 
fanta said:
There can be no doubt that, among some who consider themselves to be left wing, there is an element of absurd juvenile fascniation with the whole Robin Hood-esqe romantic image of the glorious freedom fighter.
True. But there's also those who are just liberals in disguise and wouldn't get their hands dirty with any real struggle. There's also those of us who were appalled at "our" countries oppression in Ireland and did solidarity work. Against internment, gerrymandering, plastic bullets, lack of civil rights, shoot to kill, army collusion with loyalist death squads etc etc. We got labelled as IRA supporters anyway.
 
Divisive Cotton said:
I don't think there's anything romantic about it at all - go to Northern Ireland and you'll see that the struggle is very, very real.

I grew up there.

So I know what the reality is - and I know who the romantics are.
 
JHE said:
He might well find a sympathetic hearing among the 90%+ of people in the Basque Country who oppose ETA's campaign of murder.
I think we can agree on the goal but not the tactics, any innocent death is wrong but then you also have to look at who counts the dead...
rioted said:
But there's also those who are just liberals in disguise and wouldn't get their hands dirty with any real struggle. There's also those of us who were appalled at "our" countries oppression in Ireland and did solidarity work. Against internment, gerrymandering, plastic bullets, lack of civil rights, shoot to kill, army collusion with loyalist death squads etc etc. We got labelled as IRA supporters anyway.
Which is a good point...
 
In Bloom said:
Why is it that so many left-wingers and anarchists get so excited over the IRA? I mean, they're a bunch of nationalist twats who went round bombing totally innocent people, what's so wonderful about that?

And before anybody starts, the Unionists and the British army are no better, but they don't seem to enjoy the same sort of hero-worship that the IRA do on here.
further to previous replies...

you seem to be forgetting that for many years anarchists and other anti-fascists defended republican marches (certainly in london) from attack from fascists. this has led to a certain influence of republican ideas in some anarchist circles, tho' it is by no means pervasive. in class war there's been a tradition of supporting the ira because of their resistance to unionist and british oppression, tho not all members support them - some take your attitude to them. if you look at issues of cw from the 1980s, for instance, there's a strong pro-ira line. the ira is, too, a working class organisation (tho' since the ceasefires there have been some questions raised about the sort of person they've been attracting...).

there's also been the point that a defeat for the british state in the six counties could well lead to serious trouble here on the 'mainland' - something recognised by a tory mp some years ago when he said "if we lose in belfast, we may have to fight in brixton and birmingham".

yeh, the ira's a broad church, containing people with a wide variety of political opinions, from some who are downright reactionary to revolutionary socialists. if you don't wish to support their aims, fair enough. but certainly in my case i support the republican movement not least because of my past contact with many republicans in a wide variety of campaigns. they've turned out not just on large demos, but on smaller things, too, which many so-called anarchists have ignored, such as prisoners' justice days in the 1990s. this contact, as well my own reading on the subject, persuaded me that they were right to carry out their armed struggle. and it's not like they didn't try other tactics before they moved to the 1969 - 1994/6 armed campaign...

republicans may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they've taken everything the british state could throw at them and they're still there. there's a lot people on the left and in the anarchist movement could learn about struggle from them, a lot that may become increasingly relevant as repressive laws the likes of which have only been previously seen in the six counties begin to be imposed here.
 
Divisive Cotton said:
The struggle as the time was a necessity -
Indeed. The IRA did not occur in a vacuum, which is something the mainstream commontators such as the BBC tend to ignore. In Bloom, however, is not one of these. I think we can spare him the history lesson and the class analysis.

So, fundamentally, he's right: the IRA - whatever the beginnings - are an authoritarian organisation, oppressing the community it purports to defend. They are not part of the struggle now if they ever were; they are now something to be struggled against.
 
Pickman's model said:
further to previous replies...<yawn>

Aw come on Pickmans, enough of the tedious pseudo poitical cod theorising - post another photo of some twat wearing a balaclava or the aftermath of a bomb attack for us.

Pretty please? :)
 
fanta said:
Aw come on Pickmans, enough of the tedious pseudo poitical cod theorising - post another photo of some twat wearing a balaclava or the aftermath of a bomb attack for us.

Pretty please? :)
please stop attributing your "thoughts" to me.
 
pilchardman said:
So, fundamentally, he's right: the IRA - whatever the beginnings - are an authoritarian organisation, oppressing the community it purports to defend. They are not part of the struggle now if they ever were; they are now something to be struggled against.

How are they supressing the community they purport to defend?

As for authoritarian - yes, they had a very definite command structure. But I would always argue that the shape of the organisation has to reflect the environment that they operate in. I don't see any point in having what is called a democratic centralist organisation in Britain in 2005 - any organisation on the left needs to be federated and decentralised in order to allow its components the room with which to be experimental in - the left is on the margins and in order to be anything else it can't have a rigid structure and expect the rest of the world to fit around it.
However, in times of revolutionary struggle when peoples well-being and lives are at stake it may well be the case that a different, more centralised structure is necessary.
 
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