Inside, against and beyond the Labour Party: Thoughts for the Left post-GE

[chilango]

*not a thread for centrist whining. start your own "we lost" thread*

So.

The Left took a beating, no?

What now?

 

[Pickman's model]

don't mourn, organise

 

[kebabking]

Left(ish) ideas were popular across the political spectrum. Adherents to the 'anti-imperialism of fools' are not, nor are conspiraloons.

Voters will happily vote for value, what they won't vote for is some desperate loon flinging free around like a monkey throws shit.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Corbynism sucked everything into its orbit, so I suppose all of this really depends on what happens with labour leadership

 

[Pickman's model]

Left(ish) ideas were popular across the political spectrum. Adherents to the 'anti-imperialism of fools' are not, nor are conspiraloons.

Voters will happily vote for value, what they won't vote for is some desperate loon flinging free around like a monkey throws shit.

i think a larger failing of the election was that a lot of these ideas (eg the broadband one) seemed to come out of nowhere. if it had been 'we'll sort brexit and get something better than may or johnson managed, upgrade the nhs and we'll bring these public services back in-house as quickly as possible' then grand - but i think people want the basic shit sorted out before you get on to the 'wouldn't it be nice if' things. there is no point having superfast broadband if you either don't have a computer or don't really know how to use it, and even if you do have a computer and know how to use it, i think a lot of people would prefer to have the nhs and education on an even keel before free broadband comes your way. the windfall tax should have been aimed at ending homelessness in the uk, it should have been a labour 'back to basics' manifesto based on elements everyone associates with labour.

so for the labour left there's an element of presentation and prioritisation to think about.

 

[realitybites]

They sure did, besides the bash from the blue they beat themselves up good and proper. It would never of occurred if it were not for the irrational stupidity of left liberal reactions.

Check this ‘For a left that dared to speak its name’ Oct 19 - Slovaj Zizek - skip to 36 mins for a good analysis on why people vote for someone who is not their friend, it’s a video worthy of this thread.

 

[LDC]

Knocking this back up. Anyone given this more thought, or even got to the point that it'll change what they do politically? Plenty of talk about 'community organizing' being knocked about, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Knocking this back up. Anyone given this more thought, or even got to the point that it'll change what they do politically? Plenty of talk about 'community organizing' being knocked about, but I won't hold my breath.

Lots of talk of this at outset of corbyn (ism), social movement, obviously right but didn't happen

 

[LDC]

Yeah, predictably all sucked into supporting the parliamentary machine.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Yeah, predictably all sucked into supporting the parliamentary machine.

Possibly some mitigating factors, sucked into perpetual war footing, but then that wasn't unexpected really

 

[LDC]

IWCA, Angry Workers style stuff, IWGB, Acorn, renters unions, neighbourhood organising, social and cultural projects with a political edge, all that stuff that gets talked about but rarely acted upon. Are we going to see a growth in that?

If not I think the left is terminally broken.

 

[Proper Tidy]

IWCA, Angry Workers style stuff, Acorn, renters unions, neighbourhood organising, social and cultural projects with a political edge, all that stuff that gets talked about but rarely acted upon. Are we going to see a growth in that?

If not I think the left is terminally broken.

I think there are isolated cases of that, manchester momentum seems to emphasise 'social and cultural projects with a political edge' - but what worries me there is that it seems to be by the left for the left, not slagging it but impression I get is that it's niche, a bit of a ghetto, maybe good at refreshing the activist stock but not breaking out into, you know, the wider working class. If anybody thinks that is harsh, I'm not having a pop, this stuff is obviously hard

 

[chilango]

I suspect the left is terminally broken...and is about to be sucked even deeper into a culture war judging by the frenzy around accents and the coming scapegoating of immigrants when we've left the EU in a few weeks time and Johnson et al. need a new vehicle.

 

[LDC]

I think there are isolated cases of that, manchester momentum seems to emphasise 'social and cultural projects with a political edge' - but what worries me there is that it seems to be by the left for the left, not slagging it but impression I get is that it's niche, a bit of a ghetto, maybe good at refreshing the activist stock but not breaking out into, you know, the wider working class. If anybody thinks that is harsh, I'm not having a pop, this stuff is obviously hard

Yeah. I think maintaining a counter-culture (rather than a sub-culture) is always going to be a healthy part of these projects, but yeah, orientating yourself solely or mainly towards that is a disaster. I think that's a complex thing to break though, and this leftie youth surge makes it worse rather than better I suspect.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I just posted this on the GE thread but it is probably more appropriate here.

I'm just finishing off 'The Making of the English Working Class' and one key lesson it seems to offer is that unless a movement is born out of the culture, practices and desires of a class (or can at least genuinely engage with that culture, those practices and desires) then it cannot hope to achieve its goals. Another is that any such movement needs its own spaces to share, interrogate and build on its experiences. There was a period when the Labour Party may have been able to play a role in meeting the demands of both these lessons; in these immediate post-election days it is hard to see any such remaining capacity.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[redsquirrel]

Bang on the money Louis MacNeice

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Over the coming years, climate change is only going to grow in political significance. I was encouraged by Labour's 'Green New Deal' ideas and I think this is something they need to build on and develop. And they can do that around a very simple theme, namely that you cannot tackle the climate crisis without tackling social justice and inequality, and you cannot tackle social justice and inequality without tackling the climate crisis. Even if they wanted to, they can't go back to a Blairist pose of disinterest in the wealth of the wealthiest. That pose was always wrong in its assumptions that we can somehow afford the rich, mind you.

If this Johnson govt runs to form and spends the next five years acting as if climate change were some vague thing that might happen in the future instead of a thing that is happening right here and now, there should be ample opportunity to point out the folly of its actions and to present the clear alternative. I don't know if it will work because tbh I'm pessimistic about the ability of political systems like the UK's to respond to climate change, but it's the only game in town, and there is no other option but to try.

 

[LDC]

Over the coming years, climate change is only going to grow in political significance. I was encouraged by Labour's 'Green New Deal' ideas and I think this is something they need to build on and develop. And they can do that around a very simple theme, namely that you cannot tackle the climate crisis without tackling social justice and inequality, and you cannot tackle social justice and inequality without tackling the climate crisis. Even if they wanted to, they can't go back to a Blairist pose of disinterest in the wealth of the wealthiest. That pose was always wrong in its assumptions that we can somehow afford the rich, mind you.

If this Johnson govt runs to form and spends the next five years acting as if climate change were some vague thing that might happen in the future instead of a thing that is happening right here and now, there should be ample opportunity to point out the folly of its actions and to present the clear alternative. I don't know if it will work because tbh I'm pessimistic about the ability of political systems like the UK's to respond to climate change, but it's the only game in town, and there is no other option but to try.

Yeah, I have to say I also see climate stuff as a big battleground in the coming years. Whether it gets dealt with (a) effectively and (b) equitably depends on the left being strong.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I just posted this on the GE thread but it is probably more appropriate here.

I'm just finishing off 'The Making of the English Working Class' and one key lesson it seems to offer is that unless a movement is born out of the culture, practices and desires of a class (or can at least genuinely engage with that culture, those practices and desires) then it cannot hope to achieve its goals. Another is that any such movement needs its own spaces to share, interrogate and build on its experiences. There was a period when the Labour Party may have been able to play a role in meeting the demands of both these lessons; in these immediate post-election days it is hard to see any such remaining capacity.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I'd add a third lesson from the book - Thompson is keen to show us at each turn how social being produces social consciousness.

Overlooking this, glossing over the last 50 years of the lived experience of working class communities, is such a fundamental error in the accounts of much of the left when they discuss 'the heartlands'.

ETA: I'd add that what I have seen over the last few days from leading 'thinkers' is a developing narrative that the 'working class let the left down' rather than the other way round. There is also an attempt to divide the working class on spatial grounds (city WC - inherently radical/left) (deindustrialised places - plebeian right/an unmade WC)

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I'd add a third lesson from the book - Thompson is keen to show us at each turn how social being produces social consciousness.

Overlooking this, glossing over the last 50 years of the lived experience of working class communities, is such a fundamental error in the accounts of much of the left when they discuss 'the heartlands'.

ETA: If we accept the last sentence of your post as essentially correct (and I hope it isn't but suspect it is) then it poses an obvious question - what next? M

In some ways I really wish that the Labour Party could and would become part of a movement for pro-working class change. I re-joined after many years critically outside, buoyed up by the influx of members, the left turn in leadership and policy and I am still a member. What I have seen as a member was the creation of a movement (and its subsequent partial ebbing away) but a movement to transform the Labour Party rather than society. And now following the election defeat all the energies I see are being spent on these battles over the party rather than the much larger, and ultimately more hopeful project of improving the world we live in, our relationships one with another and our lives domestic, local, regional, national and international.

As to what is needed, well I think small but essential projects (social, economic, political and cultural - the protection of local amenities, the industrial dispute, the fighting of elections, the celebratory event) that talk to each other as equals and are not mediated through some 'wiser' arbiter, but are always looking for common ground and mutual recognition and respect. That's me wishing again.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Smokeandsteam]

As to what is needed, well I think small but essential projects (social, economic, political and cultural - the protection of local amenities, the industrial dispute, the fighting of elections, the celebratory event) that talk to each other as equals and are not mediated through some 'wiser' arbiter, but are always looking for common ground and mutual recognition and respect. That's me wishing again.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

This, and I know you were around the IWCA pilots, seems to me the essential point. The development of working class first formations - no matter how micro, ephemeral and prone to dispersal - but 'born out of the culture, practices and desires' of that class' is where the focus must be. It's how they become something more, how they can agglomerate that I'm struggling with

 

[SpookyFrank]

What now?

Wait patiently for the baby boomers to die out.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

This, and I know you were around the IWCA pilots, seems to me the essential point. The development of working class first formations - no matter how micro, ephemeral and prone to dispersal - but 'born out of the culture, practices and desires' of that class' is where the focus must be. It's how they become something more, how they can agglomerate that I'm struggling with

I can see three ways of drawing together.

Firstly there is the simple sharing of experiences/stories both on line and face to face; not shared with a view to coming to some definitive stance/some line of demarcation...just shared to hear, to take away and to reflect on.

Secondly there is joint practical activity; the physically getting together to get something done (not bringing a banner and message of solidarity on a demonstration...we all know how to do that). Here I'm thinking more along the lines of a reciprocal agreement to help decorate a flat in one place in return for assistance in bringing a play area back up to scratch. Something where people get to know and trust each other and achieve a genuinely useful outcome.

Thirdly there are celebrations; more parties not more Parties. We get together to celebrate all sorts of stuff, let's do more of it to celebrate our resilience, our sense of of fun, our strength and our cleverness. Again its about sharing, building mutual recognition/respect, about friendship and enjoyment; it is not a networking opportunity or some sort of hidden caucusing event.

Thanks Smokeandsteam for getting me to write some of this down as I realise it has been spinning round in my head in fragments for quite a while now.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[skyscraper101]

I reckon its time the Natural Law Party to come out of retirement.

 

[treelover]

I can't speak for other CLP's( a city one) , but the energy seemed to focus around issues with migration, global issues, Palestine, hostile environment, all worthy, but every month there were motions on this, and action was taken, on economic ones there was generally acceptance things must change, but usually they went into the ether, three motions to branch and CLP on charging clients in the city for social care and nothing has really happened. There was a Food bank collection, on firrst glance looked large, but then you noticed many were large donations, so not much between 80 largely affluent people. Then there were motions to Confernce nationally, poverty and social security were right down the list, with the PLP, Unions, even worse than others.

I would be interested to know what it was like in smaller non city areas.

 

[sunnysidedown]

excellent post that Louis MacNeice

 

[treelover]

A party that works and wins for working people will need to understand us first

Dont agree with all of it, but the warning signs were there, i would add another, turn outs for canvassing, they seemed to go headlong for spectaculars, Smiths seat, etc, Melanie Onn, Grimsby, says hardly anyone came to help her, Grimsby was a faultline, it should have had lost of support.

 

[treelover]

"Thirdly there are celebrations; more parties not more Parties. We get together to celebrate all sorts of stuff, let's do more of it to celebrate our resilience, our sense of of fun, our strength and our cleverness. Again its about sharing, building mutual recognition/respect, about friendship and enjoyment; it is not a networking opportunity or some sort of hidden caucusing event."

Yes, but are the networks there, say in places like Grimsby?

 

[LDC]

I can't speak for other CLP's( a city one) , but the energy seemed to focus around issues with migration, global issues, Palestine, hostile environment, all worthy, but every month there were motions on this, and action was taken, on economic ones there was generally acceptance things must change, but usually they went into the ether, three motions to branch and CLP on charging clients in the city for social care and nothing has really happened. There was a Food bank collection, on firrst glance looked large, but then you noticed many were large donations, so not much between 80 largely affluent people. Then there were motions to Confernce nationally, poverty and social security were right down the list, with the PLP, Unions, even worse than others.

I would be interested to know what it was like in smaller non city areas.

Didn't Lisa McKenzie get hounded off Twitter recently for suggesting Palestine wasn't in the top 5 concerns for most people? On Novara David Wearing went on and on and on about Yemen, another topic that I suspect isn't high on that list.

It is a bit of a problem for some bits of the left this fixation on struggles elsewhere to the exclusion of those closer to home. Even if only in the realm of pragmatism in that it makes you look a bit disconnected at best/mad at worst to those outside the activist bubble.

 

[killer b]

I'd add that what I have seen over the last few days from leading 'thinkers' is a developing narrative that the 'working class let the left down' rather than the other way round.

Which leading thinkers are developing this narrative?