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Industrial music and its relationship(??) to fascism

Fozzie Bear said:
I think this is what's known as "whataboutery". It's good that The Black Dog have taken a principled stand against fascist influences seeping into techno and electronic music. Perhaps they could do more to criticise other things, but it's a breath of fresh air seeing someone criticise something in that scene rather than being backslappy or aloof.
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That wasn't my point though mate.

It's as if there's some kind of stepping stone where we're like, oops, an artist has gone too far. And thats what distresses me, because you can be a Randian libertarian and not get any shit for it, but as soon as you're fash, the liberals start hunting you down like they've just discovered marxism for the very first time.
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Can you see why as a person of colour and an ostracised communist to boot I'm less concerned about this on an individual level than some others may be?
 
Tbh, if any musicians come out as randian libertarians they do get a heap of shit, at least on here. Check out the frank turner thread for details. Iirc rush get short shrift for their love of rand (as well as for being shit).

On the whole its not such a visible aesthetic though, so the opportunities for witch-burning dont come along so often.
 
dialectician said:
That wasn't my point though mate.



Can you see why as a person of colour and an ostracised communist to boot I'm less concerned about this on an individual level than some others may be?
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Well no, not really unless it's a general fear of scapegoating "the other". Which you would get more of in a scene where white boys flirting with fascism is normalised?
 
Fozzie Bear said:
Well no, not really unless it's a general fear of scapegoating "the other". Which you would get more of in a scene where white boys flirting with fascism is normalised?
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It's quite simple mate. If you're going to (rightfully) complain about fascist influences seeping into techno or electronic music or whatever it pays to be critical of your own relationship to the tradition/discourse/what have you. Otherwise you're just conceding an own goal.

The question isn't whether such-and-such artist is a fascist or not. The question is why liberalism allows atavistic forms of aesthetics to become mystified?

Like, when I asked TBD on Twitter why techno nights are overwhelmingly dominated by white people their response was a glib 'it is what it is though, you can't force people'.

Fair enough, but if you're not willing to examine this issue then I have the right not to be impressed with your criticisms of fascist aesthetics seeping into the movement.

This issue was not brought up in the Josh Hall article or the discussions surrounding all of this last april before the downwards night at Corsica.
 
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The fact is we tend to want to fetishise (and I say this as a techno devotee!) our artform as somehow progressive, militant or vaguely left wing. But as killer b said, we can't apply the template that UR or Perc use to every techno producer or consumer. Because the scene isn't properly political (well there are elements of politics, but i don't believe they serve any kind of détournement, even if they desire to do so.) Ultimately techno is rigidly locked into the cultural logic of capitalism. There was maybe a window of freedom in the early 90s with the free party and spiral tribe-esque anti-establishment rhetoric but even then...
 
Anyway when i get my techno band/collective together i want to try and focus on these themes in track titles/releases.

i think routinisation is a big problem. if i can make techno sound more like arabic/turkish rhythms (it's the area that i have the most knowledge in) it seems like a way to break techno's DNA and rechannel its pleasure principle. Try make it less hypnotic and more confrontational by applying my own influences. And try and randomise the process by going down the road of improv, making a statement about the way we rip tropes out of their context as technology makes predictability a lot easier.

First I need to invest in a modular, though...
 
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dialectician said:
It's quite simple mate. If you're going to (rightfully) complain about fascist influences seeping into techno or electronic music or whatever it pays to be critical of your own relationship to the tradition/discourse/what have you. Otherwise you're just conceding an own goal.

The question isn't whether such-and-such artist is a fascist or not. The question is why liberalism allows atavistic forms of aesthetics to become mystified?

Like, when I asked TBD on Twitter why techno nights are overwhelmingly dominated by white people their response was a glib 'it is what it is though, you can't force people'.

Fair enough, but if you're not willing to examine this issue then I have the right not to be impressed with your criticisms of fascist aesthetics seeping into the movement.

This issue was not brought up in the Josh Hall article or the discussions surrounding all of this last april before the downwards night at Corsica.
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I'm not sure I get what you're saying here, or that it adds up. the answer might seem glib but it's a pretty universal truth with regarding the audience any club/event/music/whatever attracts - it's not easy to control and probably not all that desirable to try...
 
uh... I wasn't saying that the policies of techno clubs should be controlled. But when you emphasise the fact that techno music is black music (to use the words of TBD) it pays to ask why so few black people in the UK (at the very least) are at techno nights.

And then following on from that, understanding how these fascist influences/aesthetics/provocations/whatever aren't vigorously protested in the techno scene.

Otherwise it's just having a go at some idiotic nihilists. Which is exactly what they want you to do, hence the provocation. The trick is not to be provoked but subvert.

And, of course, when you're provoked, you're normalising their discourse. Which plays exactly into their hands.
 
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killer b said:
Tbh, if any musicians come out as randian libertarians they do get a heap of shit, at least on here. Check out the frank turner thread for details. Iirc rush get short shrift for their love of rand (as well as for being shit).

On the whole its not such a visible aesthetic though, so the opportunities for witch-burning dont come along so often.
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Plus as stupid and anti-social as RW Libertarianism is it hardly has the same history that Fascism does.
 
dialectician said:
And then following on from that, understanding how these fascist influences/aesthetics/provocations/whatever aren't vigorously protested in the techno scene.
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because it isn't really there maybe? in Techno?
I guess it probably would be somewhere, there's that martial thing to it.
I'm not sure anyone would claim there was a problem with fascism in techno would they?
in industrial music for sure
and the crossover area between the two is where this sneaks in here but
no-one would really argue that industrial music is 'black' would they?
although I don't really see how it is inherently white either.
what we're talking about here is basically TBD calling out people for being on the same label as artists they find questionable
or for having roots and influences in early industrial music and saying it's not ok to be listening to NON because Boyd Rice is a racist moron
or Whitehouse 'cos they're well dodgy etc

it's a bit like arguing about how many angels fit on the head of a pin
in techno nights and dance music up and down this country this stuff just doesn't even feature in the slightest
 
Never mind.

Regarding the roots/influences thing. If you're going to go down that line you might as well not listen to Bowie, Clapton, or even the proto-fascist Wagner. Yet I doubt TBD would argue such a thing.

Again, I don't really give two shits whether Rice/Bennett are racists or not. What I do passionately care about, however, is why fascist aesthetics are even seen as a legitimate method of artistic provocation. And to me this signifies liberal guilt.
 
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but this is pretty much the argument they have made
and I 'd agree that the fact a metal band I might like listen to Burzum is no reason to ignore their music unless they engage in the same dubious politics
it's nonsense.

I'm not sure they are seen as a 'legitimate' form of provocation but clearly they have an unpalatable history and they are provocative as a result.
although it's unclear quite what you mean, or what aspect you refer to by 'fascist aesthetics'
and I'm not quite sure how it signifies liberal guilt either - in the sense of a hand wringing 'ooh that's a bit much, I'm not sure that's okay' sort of way? or in a broader more historical sense?
 
Fascist aesthetics aren't seen as a legitimate method of artistic expression. And where does liberal guilt come in? You've lost me tbh mate.
 
ouchmonkey said:
but this is pretty much the argument they have made
and I 'd agree that the fact a metal band I might like listen to Burzum is no reason to ignore their music unless they engage in the same dubious politics
it's nonsense.

I'm not sure they are seen as a 'legitimate' form of provocation but clearly they have an unpalatable history and they are provocative as a result.
although it's unclear quite what you mean, or what aspect you refer to by 'fascist aesthetics'
and I'm not quite sure how it signifies liberal guilt either - in the sense of a hand wringing 'ooh that's a bit much, I'm not sure that's okay' sort of way? or in a broader more historical sense?
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What annoys me about these sorts of arguments is they can legitimately make an argument contending that art isn't disembodied, which I'm all behind. But they get the individuals involved and it turns into little more than moralising.

I mean, christ, I'm not going to give up listening to Bariş manço's 70s psychedelic music because he was a turkish ultranationalist. Yet TBD would probably argue such a thing. Also I'm not going to deny (although i might not necessarily like him) that T. S. Eliot was a great poet despite his virulent antisemitism.

I'm all for rejecting certain forms of art if they're not progressive or reactionary or whatever. But surely this should be accomplished on the collective level. once again: there's no détournement in techno culture (if ever there was) and this is the big problem.
 
Also I don't think I have ever seen TBD say that people shouldn't listen to something.

They have suggested that some people are knobs, they have suggested that some music is not good, they have said that using shit music by knobs in your mixes is a bad idea. They have put a CD they didn't like through an industrial shredder. They have said using a photograph of Nicky Crane to promote a release is out of order.

But it's not really their style to tell people that they shouldn't listen to something in the privacy of their own home.
 
dialectician said:
The fact is we tend to want to fetishise (and I say this as a techno devotee!) our artform as somehow progressive, militant or vaguely left wing. But as killer b said, we can't apply the template that UR or Perc use to every techno producer or consumer. Because the scene isn't properly political (well there are elements of politics, but i don't believe they serve any kind of détournement, even if they desire to do so.) Ultimately techno is rigidly locked into the cultural logic of capitalism. There was maybe a window of freedom in the early 90s with the free party and spiral tribe-esque anti-establishment rhetoric but even then...
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The point is surely to make it political? Or at the very least to promote people who have decent politics (and make decent music) and criticise people who have shit politics? Have you seen Datacide magazine?
 
dialectician said:
Which release are you talking about with the photograph of Nicky Crane Fozzie Bear?

Also, re: datacide, no.
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Can't remember what the release was but it's probably all there if you track back through the Black Dog twitter. It wasn't anyone I had heard of (a rising star, perhaps) but it's not really my scene anyway.

I can send you a copy of the mag if you like or you can see older articles at http://datacide.c8.com/magazine/
 
Just twigged last night that Robert Forbes who wrote the fanboy Death In June book "Misery and Purity" in the 1990s is the same Robert Forbes who has just co-written "When The Storm Breaks: Rock Against Communism 1979-1993" with hardcore Nazi and convicted wifebeater Eddie Stampton.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
Just twigged last night that Robert Forbes who wrote the fanboy Death In June book "Misery and Purity" in the 1990s is the same Robert Forbes who has just co-written "When The Storm Breaks: Rock Against Communism 1979-1993" with hardcore Nazi and convicted wifebeater Eddie Stampton.
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:eek:

Neofolk isn't my scene at all but sampled some of their stuff on youtube and my god is it utter cruddy dross
 
Fozzie Bear found it


I thought Manni Dee's South Asian? He should have known better. :facepalm:

And here's a very piss poor response from him...

Code: 
https://twitter.com/manni_dee/status/522091014237216768
 
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this is a couple of years old but new to me - audience member asks O'Malley outright about the ideology of 90's black metal
he gives a reasonable and yet still slightly wishy washy answer along the lines of
'I was young, I didn't care, as I've got older I no longer have any tolerance for that mentality....'
that leaves the vaguely unsatisfactory taste that he still doesn't care all that much



meh - thought I had it start at the question, but it seems to start at the end of his answer... scroll back a minute or two if you care too
 
He's being asked the wrong question - never mind the music and music scene, he should be asked about his collaboration with real fascists, far righters and racists outside of the music business. For example his work with the scumbags around the Tyr journal and in publishing french fascists, far righters and racists. He was in his 30s when he was doing this, not a teenager.
 
I'm hoping NemesisUK has something to say about this


ETA - dammit how do you tag someone?
 
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