In praise of subtitles

[mrsfran]

Never done live subs - I do pre-recorded subs. I work with MrsFran.

I wasn't gonna out you, but hey

 

[MrCurry]

It's also worth noting that subtitling is much, much more than putting the script onscreen. You've got to time it so it lines up perfectly with the dialogue while making sure that it remains at a readable speed. And if they talk faster than a viewer could feasible read, you've got to paraphrase in a way that keeps the whole sense and feel of the dialogue and doesn't patronize. You've got to distinguish between speakers and make sure that character's subtitle colours remain consistent throughout, even when there are only 4 colours to choose from and 8 characters. You've got to never, ever give away a punchline or the answer to a quiz question before it's said. You've got to make sure that the words appear on the screen in the most reading-friendly way - if there's two lines, they must break in the most natural way. So it's not:

Jimmy said he was going to go to the
doctor on Friday

It's

Jimmy said he was going to go
to the doctor on Friday

You've got to make sure the captions don't obscure important visual information like the score or a credit. You've got to make sure you subtitle important auditory information that might be missed by a hearing-impaired viewer - an unseen gunshot, a baby crying, a slammed door. You've got to convey the soundscape of the programme without going overboard - you can't subtitle every little sound, but if there's sudden eerie music, that needs to be described. You've got to research the music. If anyone speaks in a foreign language, you've got to identify that language and label it. You've got to convey sarcasm and singing and shouting and whispering. And you've got to do it all in a way that makes the viewer forget they're reading the subtitles at all.

On average, a pre-recorded 45 minute programme that we have a script for takes 5 - 6 hours to subtitle.

How do you identify which foreign language is which?

 

[Orang Utan]

How do you identify which foreign language is which?

By listening? There’s also probably information in the metadata/script

 

[MrCurry]

By listening? There’s also probably information in the metadata/script

I wouldnt know what foreign language was being spoken in most cases. I could guess but without a high degree of confidence. Chinese vs Korean vs Japanese would be tricky and you’d need some expertise to distinguish Danish from Swedish or Norwegian. Could you identify Georgian being spoken?

Maybe they have special software which assists?

 

[mrsfran]

Well, today during a film that we have no script for (because it's a Danish film and I'm just subtitling the music and sound effects), I had some clips of various foreign politicians being drunk. First, I listened, and it sounded like German, but I couldn't be completely sure. So I asked a German-speaking colleague to have a listen, and they couldn't be sure either. So I googled drunk politicians, and checked images until I found the man I was looking for. He was speaking Flemish.

We basically do the best we can. We get good at googling, we use our pretty large pool of knowledge (subtitlers watch and know all kinds of stuff) - we try our best. And then, if we really have exhausted our powers, we put (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE). I just don't like to.

Also, IMDB often lists the languages used in films, which can be helful.

 

[Orang Utan]

I wouldnt know what foreign language was being spoken in most cases. I could guess but without a high degree of confidence. Chinese vs Korean vs Japanese would be tricky and you’d need some expertise to distinguish Danish from Swedish or Norwegian. Could you identify Georgian being spoken?

Maybe they have special software which assists?

Chinese, Korean and Japanese are easily distinguishable. Scandinavian languages, not so much. But you’d probably be able to deduce the language being spoken just from the context

 

[mrsfran]

Chinese, Korean and Japanese are easily distinguishable. Scandinavian languages, not so much. But you’d probably be able to deduce the language being spoken just from the context

I had a programme where I couldn't tell which East Asian language was being used by two very minor characters, and there was no script and no useful info on IMDB. I asked a colleague who speaks Mandarin and Korean, and he couldn't tell. I asked around and no one who was working that day could tell. I resigned myself to (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) and got on the with programme. It went out like that.

The next week I did the next episode and these minor characters show up again - but they're talking about Hanoi. It was Vietnamese! I went back and changed that last episode's subtitles so the next time it went out, it was right.

 

[JimW]

I've subtitled some telly and a couple of feature-length documentaries and what Mrs Fran says is so true; I found the lining up of the dialogue tricky as you often want to reverse the order a bit going from Chinese to English.

 

[Orang Utan]

I've subtitled some telly and a couple of feature-length documentaries and what Mrs Fran says is so true; I found the lining up of the dialogue tricky as you often want to reverse the order a bit going from Chinese to English.

It’s a shame if you’re a fast reader though. I’d rather have the full translation if possible

 

[JimW]

It’s a shame if you’re a fast reader though. I’d rather have the full translation if possible

It's always something of a compromise even when it's a literary text and you have all the leeway you want to gloss and be expansive, suppose the art comes in hitting just the right spot for your medium.

 

[T & P]

So, from a 'wanting as faithful a translation of the original as possible' standpoint, are we actually better off listening to the dubbed version than reading subtitles? Or are they both on broadly the same level of accuracy?

 

[Orang Utan]

So, from a 'wanting as faithful a translation of the original as possible' standpoint, are we actually better off listening to the dubbed version than reading subtitles? Or are they both on broadly the same level of accuracy?

No way. You need the actors’ voices - even if you don’t understand them, you can still tell a lot from them

 

[Reno]

So, from a 'wanting as faithful a translation of the original as possible' standpoint, are we actually better off listening to the dubbed version than reading subtitles? Or are they both on broadly the same level of accuracy?

Apart from that acting is an art which is largely ruined by dubbing, you still don’t get a 100% faithful translations as words are also chosen to fit lip movements.

 

[Elpenor]

Chinese, Korean and Japanese are easily distinguishable. Scandinavian languages, not so much. But you’d probably be able to deduce the language being spoken just from the context

Chinese not being a language notwithstanding, agree that they’re very different sounds but then I have lived with a Korean, worked with Japanese people for 5 years and had a few Chinese friends; so maybe it’s easy for me to work it out. Have to admit I don’t think I could pick out Vietnamese if I heard it and I’ve been to Vietnam for a holiday.

 

[Orang Utan]

Chinese not being a language notwithstanding, agree that they’re very different sounds but then I have lived with a Korean, worked with Japanese people for 5 years and had a few Chinese friends; so maybe it’s easy for me to work it out. Have to admit I don’t think I could pick out Vietnamese if I heard it and I’ve been to Vietnam for a holiday.

Mandarin is commonly referred to as Chinese
also, I’m pretty sure I could identify Vietnamese. Though I grew up hearing lots of different languages and I was obsessed from a young age. my local museum has an exhibit of a world map connected to a bunch of phones and you could pick a country and listen to a recording of the language(s) spoken in each country featured. Used to spend Saturday afternoons glued to those phones

 

[philosophical]

My partner is Chinese.
We always have subtitles, it has helped her enormously, and probably helped our children with English.
Also good if the sound needs to be on low, or the sound recording quality is poor.
No good for quiz shows!
This is a true experience of mine. Subtitles used to be done by BBC Scotland, and once on Newsnight (where subtitling has to be sort of real time) in a discussion about Ireland, every time Catholic was said the subtitles came up as 'left-footer'.
It irritated me enough to phone in and complain to the BBC, for whatever good that would've done.
Countdown on in the background when the kids were toddlers helped letter recognition and spelling way before they went to school.

 

[WouldBe]

I don't like subs as I find them too distracting.

 

[Epona]

I find it difficult to manage without them

 

[mrsfran]

I don't like subs as I find them too distracting.

Lucky you don't have to see them then.

 

[Epona]

Lucky you don't rely on them too!

Wish I didn't have to use them

 

[Ted Striker]

Dubbed anything is a complete non-starter though, right? We can all agree on that?!

 

[WouldBe]

Lucky you don't have to see them then.

I've seen recently, on news items iirc, they put up subs if there's a strong accent wether you've got subs turned on or not.

I've got a problem with slow processing speed coupled with dyslexia which makes reading them difficult. So tend to try and lip read if I'm having problems.

When they put up someone's name as a caption on the news I find they don't leave them up long enough particularly with some long names to be able to read them.

 

[Yossarian]

I think scifisam used to do live subs. I could be misremembering though

I used to do live subs - it was like a form of shorthand, we all had our own keyboard shortcuts we chose for dozens of common phrases, it was a sad day when the company decided to save money by firing most of us and switching to voice recognition subtitles.

 

[dessiato]

Until subtitles became common my deaf sister almost never watched films or tv. Now she is an avid watcher of both. It has changed her world. SMS/MMS and text messages on her mobile revolutionised her life. We forget how wonderful just listening, hearing, is.

 

[Maltin]

I would like to see them as a default setting for everything, and it looks like I’m not the only person who thinks that:

I don't think they should be a default setting, although I agree that everything should have them so that they can be turned on. While helpful to him, when watching TV with my dad, I find that I am always reading what is on screen rather than listening to the actors. Especially annoying when a joke is told or a key plot point is mentioned and you read it before you hear it.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Dubbed anything is a complete non-starter though, right? We can all agree on that?!

I think having it as an option for people who are vision impaired or people who can't read for some other reason is worthwhile.
But mostly I wouldn't pick a dub over a sub.

Although I did play the witcher with english audio after first giving it a try in polish. so I guess it's not a absolute for me.

 

[Reno]

I think having it as an option for people who are vision impaired or people who can't read for some other reason is worthwhile.
But mostly I wouldn't pick a dub over a sub.

Although I did play the witcher with english audio after first giving it a try in polish. so I guess it's not a absolute for me.

Why did you try watching The Witcher in Polish ?

 

[Orang Utan]

I think having it as an option for people who are vision impaired or people who can't read for some other reason is worthwhile.
But mostly I wouldn't pick a dub over a sub.

Although I did play the witcher with english audio after first giving it a try in polish. so I guess it's not a absolute for me.

I did the same with Ghosts Of Tsushima, but with video games you also need to pay attention to the controls of course

 

[Orang Utan]

Why did you try watching The Witcher in Polish ?

He’s referring to the video game I presume

 

[Reno]

He’s referring to the video game I presume

I didn't even know it was a video game, but then that's something I really know nothing about.