In praise of subtitles

[mrsfran]

What a fucking shambles. They’ll get a massive fine from OffCom for this

As well they should. The main channels are required to subtitle at least 80% of their output, and this will put them way under.

 

[Epona]

Mid November for subtitles to return to channel 4. Not good enough, and not much of a commitment to disabilities for a channel intended to serve diverse audiences.

Channel 4 subtitles to remain unavailable until mid-November

Campaigners voice anger at continued outage of access services that also include signed broadcasts

www.theguardian.com

Especially when Channel 5 has managed to add subtitles manually to many of their most popular offerings.

 

[MrCurry]

Not exactly a safe by design IT architecture if they’re relying on local storage on hard drives inside their building. Any number of disasters could cause a data loss (eg. Fire, theft, etc), so even small companies don’t normally do that. What about network drives, cloud storage and backup routines? So easily implemented these days with a cheap subscription to AWS or Google drive. What a fuckup!

 

[Chz]

Consensus on a tech site seemed to be that RedBee thought C4 had backups and C4 thought RB had backups, so when things went tits up... Basically, C4 and 5 are both running on their DR but C4's DR subtitles are knackered and they're afraid to rebuild it until they're off DR. (The little black/white square in the upper right corner tells you 5 is on DR)

 

[stdP]

If it's The Register you mean, then yes, looks like a cock up on many fronts. Weeks after Red Bee Media's broadcast centre fell over, Channel 4 is still struggling with subtitles

Our source noted that it was not the first time the fire alarm had gone off, but was the first time that nobody had managed to get to the override in time. The thinking behind the system was apparently "kill the flames and sod the consequences." As for those consequences: "Now we know... it kills servers."

As for the hardware, hot-swap spares are likely limited and there is every possibility that parts of the kit could be quite difficult to find nowadays. Red Bee Media got the pictures and audio up and running again quickly, but the ancillary systems (such as the ones dealing with subtitles) are clearly proving problematic.

...

According to Channel 4, AD and sign language services were "irretrievably lost during the incident," making one wonder exactly what backup strategy was in place. We asked the broadcaster to explain how its backups worked (or if it was something it had outsourced) but have yet to receive a response.

Frankly I'm surprised the fire suppression system was able to damage as much as they say it did - most of the ones I've used are based on inert gases (e.g. argonite) rather than using water or foam which is what sounds like was being used here (although the inert gas ones can also do plenty of damage if they're not set up correctly).

 

[Chz]

Apparently inert gas is so loud when it enters the room under pressure that the shock wave can damage hard disks!
That was news to me, too.

 

[skyscraper101]

Subtitles all the time now for me unless it's live sport, news or music videos. The main reason I've warmed to them is they are more pleasing on the eye these days where most of the TV I watch is on demand. Back in the days of CEEFAX on 888 it was always big blocky text that was mostly irritating.

 

[Orang Utan]

Does anyone know why subtitles are not available on streaming services as a matter of course? Prime and Apple+ I’m looking at you.

 

[mrsfran]

They're not currently mandated by Ofcom to provide subtitles on all their programming. Ofcom are in the process of reviewing their requirements and guidelines to include streaming and VOD services.

 

[Orang Utan]

They're not currently mandated by Ofcom to provide subtitles on all their programming. Ofcom are in the process of reviewing their requirements and guidelines to include streaming and VOD services.

ah, thanks. Hurry up Ofcom! It would also make certain Urbanites' careers more secure, I'd imagine!
I really struggle to make out mumbly actors the older I get - watched Diary Of A Young Girl last night and missed quite a lot of what Alexander Sarsgard and Kristen Wiig were saying as they were acting stoned half the time!

 

[Pickman's model]

Does anyone know why subtitles are not available on streaming services as a matter of course? Prime and Apple+ I’m looking at you.

They're on everything I've seen on prime, think you'd have to struggle to find a show without them on prime or for that matter netflix.

 

[Orang Utan]

They're on everything I've seen on prime, think you'd have to struggle to find a show without them on prime or for that matter netflix.

Plenty of films I rent or buy don’t have them.
Netflix seems to have them by default, but not Prime channels.

 

[Chz]

It's hard to blame the streamers for things that aren't in-house productions. They just buy most of it off a shelf, and thankfully since it's 2024 most of them have subs; but there is the odd exception. What infuriates me is renting a UK-produced Blu-ray out in the last 10 years that doesn't have subs. I still occasionally get them, and there's no excuse for that shit.

 

[Orang Utan]

It's hard to blame the streamers for things that aren't in-house productions. They just buy most of it off a shelf, and thankfully since it's 2024 most of them have subs; but there is the odd exception. What infuriates me is renting a UK-produced Blu-ray out in the last 10 years that doesn't have subs. I still occasionally get them, and there's no excuse for that shit.

maybe I've just had a run of bad luck but half a dozen or so of the films I've streamed recently were without subs. it's almost enough to drive a man back to torrenting

 

[scifisam]

It's hard to blame the streamers for things that aren't in-house productions. They just buy most of it off a shelf, and thankfully since it's 2024 most of them have subs; but there is the odd exception. What infuriates me is renting a UK-produced Blu-ray out in the last 10 years that doesn't have subs. I still occasionally get them, and there's no excuse for that shit.

You absolutely can blame the streaming companies for not adding subs. It's not the film companies that provide them, it's the streaming company.

 

[Orang Utan]

You absolutely can blame the streaming companies for not adding subs. It's not the film companies that provide them, it's the streaming company.

you'd think it would make commercial sense to do so - at least in discouraging people from torrenting their subs

 

[Elpenor]

Have to admit I struggled with All of Us Strangers at the cinema as Paul Mescal’s accident was very tricky to decipher

 

[A380]

maybe I've just had a run of bad luck but half a dozen or so of the films I've streamed recently were without subs…

Very disappointing if they were:

 

[Chz]

You absolutely can blame the streaming companies for not adding subs. It's not the film companies that provide them, it's the streaming company.

It's normally the distributor. Netflix and Amazon likely don't employ anyone at all to do subtitles.

Obviously there'd be no excuse for a Netflix or Amazon produced show to not have any, but I've not run into that. TV stations and streamers absolutely just buy things off the shelf. If they have subs, great. If not, sucks for us. The Beeb sometimes does the autosubs thing for video without, but they're usually so bad I turn them off.

Eta: C4 says they're 100% now, but I haven't noticed the awful auto-generated ones on their stuff. But then I don't watch tons of telly.

 

[mrsfran]

Netflix and Amazon very much do employ people people to subtitle their content. Mostly freelancers with some in-house staff.

 

[Mogden]

BBC and Channel 4/5 subtitles have been terrible lately. Lots of their/there your/you're errors and simple things like names which have already been shown in titling by the TV programme themselves are misspelt. I do notice the odd slip on Sky too and mrsfran, you spring to mind Not as a personal responsibility of course.

 

[Chz]

BBC and Channel 4/5 subtitles have been terrible lately. Lots of their/there your/you're errors and simple things like names which have already been shown in titling by the TV programme themselves are misspelt. I do notice the odd slip on Sky too and mrsfran, you spring to mind Not as a personal responsibility of course.

I suspect it's that last 10% they've committed to now. When they were 90% subs they could skip the odd difficult one, but now that they've publicly said they're doing everything, the quality has slipped. I thought Red Bee were better than the BBC ones until they had that fire and C4 lost subs for a few months.

Ok, I was told Netflix doesn't do their own subtitling but I can't vouch for the source since they only worked at a production house and not Netflix itself.

 

[mrsfran]

While distributors can and do provide closed caption files, they are often to US spec and need adjusting for UK broadcast, including but not limited to: adjusting the frame rate to 25fps, standardized speaker identification (spec changes according to broadcaster), standardized HoH elements, conforming linear to VOD versions etc etc - all of which is the responsibility of the broadcaster and not the distributor. It is absolutely not the case that a programme comes delivered with a subtitle file and that's that.

 

[Chz]

While distributors can and do provide closed caption files, they are often to US spec and need adjusting for UK broadcast, including but not limited to: adjusting the frame rate to 25fps, standardized speaker identification (spec changes according to broadcaster), standardized HoH elements, conforming linear to VOD versions etc etc - all of which is the responsibility of the broadcaster and not the distributor. It is absolutely not the case that a programme comes delivered with a subtitle file and that's that.

Half of that is very analogue. There are absolutely stations on freeview/sat that pretty much (not exactly that way) get an SRT file with the video. Digital got rid of a lot of headaches like frame rate. PBS loves that they can just air their BBC buys at 50Hz in the States these days.

 

[scifisam]

While distributors can and do provide closed caption files, they are often to US spec and need adjusting for UK broadcast, including but not limited to: adjusting the frame rate to 25fps, standardized speaker identification (spec changes according to broadcaster), standardized HoH elements, conforming linear to VOD versions etc etc - all of which is the responsibility of the broadcaster and not the distributor. It is absolutely not the case that a programme comes delivered with a subtitle file and that's that.

Yup. And they're never auto-generated without significant human intervention for pre-recorded shows. If the people who argue this happens had ever seen the state of ASR filea for a drama or comedy then they'd realise why.

 

[Chz]

Yeah, I've seen it. But "live" isn't live, if you know what I mean. The Beeb used to, possibly still does, use it for anything due out in less than 24 hours. And yeah it has a human reviewing it, but they're under the gun and mistakes almost always get in.

I'd meant to add earlier about DVD/Bluray... Absolutely fucking infuriating to have the option for French and Spanish subtitles, but no English ones because - hey, movie's in English so why bother?

 

[Raheem]

I was watching a documentary about the Kinks on Amazon Prime recently. Here, drummer Mick Avory is explaining that relationships within the band were generally very good, "even though it had its ups and downs".


Possibly, his accent wasn't covered in the AI training materials.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

They're on everything I've seen on prime, think you'd have to struggle to find a show without them on prime or for that matter netflix.

Really? Lots of Prime stuff doesn't have subtitles so far as I'm aware, it's super annoying.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Yeah, I've seen it. But "live" isn't live, if you know what I mean. The Beeb used to, possibly still does, use it for anything due out in less than 24 hours. And yeah it has a human reviewing it, but they're under the gun and mistakes almost always get in.

I'd meant to add earlier about DVD/Bluray... Absolutely fucking infuriating to have the option for French and Spanish subtitles, but no English ones because - hey, movie's in English so why bother?

I'm a former court reporter/legal editor and so I'm vaguely aware that trained stenographers are recruited to do live subtitling.

One of the issues I'm aware of as a result is that the stenograph 'dictionary' isn't as extensive as, say, text autocorrect, I don't think. There's the basic inbuilt dictionary, but then you need to add a glossary for each job that you do.

And then, as well as preparing your glossary in advance for each job, if there are names that crop up in the course of the job (court hearing/television programme) you need to define that term, eg I'm just listening to BBC World Service now and they're talking about Brazil, Bolsanaro, and something like that might write as 'ball san are row' in the first instance, then the writer has to quickly define ie group those terms together as 'Bolsanaro' so that future instances are displayed correctly.

Any nouns, place, people or brand names will tend to be problematic in the first instance, because they won't be in the dictionary and will be needed to be added to a glossary.

 

[mrsfran]

Very little live subtitling is done using stenography now - the vast majority is done using respeaking. The subtitler listens and then re-speaks the words into software trained to their voice, adding in punctuation, colours etc along the way. So if you listen to them work they speak in a rapid monotone "cominguptonightwerejoinedbyjohnfullstopcolourgreenyesthatsrightcomma". It's a very difficult job as you're speaking, listening to the next bit and formatting simultaneously while keeping to a maximum of 6 seconds lag. They do have custom dictionaries and macros that they can train the software with - so for sports they'll have all the names of the Premier League players, for example. Live news is of course impossible to predict so they still have the same difficulty when a new name or word is used, at which point they can manually intervene and type the word. In general, they work in 30 minute blocks, and are given 30 minutes to prep for the next bit, which is the point at which they will add the new vocabulary to the custom dictionary.

And lately, some live subtitling is done as a hybrid if Automatic Speech Recognition and live respeaking - so you let the ASR run, but there is a person there who is watching and intervening when the ASR gets it wrong.

There are some channels, especially in America, where they've gone fully automated and rely solely on ASR. The results are generally poor.

Live subtitles are held to a lower standard of accuracy compared to pre-recorded subtitles as the probability of mistakes is much higher.