Implications for the rest of us if Scotland votes yes

[littlebabyjesus]

We aren't voting on Salmond's promises, though. The question we're being asked is: "Should Scotland be an independent country?" Not: "Do you endorse the SNP's White Paper?"

There will, for the millionth time, to put it bluntly, be. fucking. elections.

Sure. But let's not kid ourselves - the result of the first election will be victory to the SNP.

 

[andysays]

But we're getting back off "the implications for the rest of us".

Yes you are, and if it happens again I'm going to insist the moderators put armed border guards on this thread...

 

[danny la rouge]

Sure. But let's not kid ourselves - the result of the first election will be victory to the SNP.

Yes, indeed, as I've said on the other thread, over the years.

 

[DotCommunist]

I wonder if Ken Mcloed, scots anarcho pro-unionist and posadist heretic, has changed his mind yet

Can you really rule out civil war?

"Adam Roberts' new novel is a terrifying vision of a near future war - a civil war that tears the UK apart as new technologies allow the worlds first truly democratic army to take on the British army and wrest control from the powers that be. Taking advances in modern communication and the new eagerness for power from the bottom upwards

hilariously in this one Wills dies in a chinook crash and scotland refuses to accept the paternity of hewitts kid, leading to a civil war. Scotland hire the eponymous crowd sourced army. Presumably named after cromwells army

 

[nino_savatte]

That's the bitter reality. At the moment there are 40 Scottish Labour MPs and only 1 tory. Let's not be in denial about it; it will become far easier for the tories to win without Scotland.

That's the kind of scaremongering that I keep hearing from unionists on the Labour side. But let's face it, Labour are dominated by neoliberals and are little better than the Tories. Moreover, Scotland historically returned many more Tory MPs than it does today, so the "if Scotland becomes independent, it will mean Tory rule in England forever" narrative is dishonest. If anything, I reckon a realignment will occur south of the border, meaning that the Tories will become a spent force. And about time too.

 

[brogdale]

fingers crossed its another ginger cuckoo

The father?

Spoiler: nsfw

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Has there been any word of whether an independent Scotland will raise or lower duty on sales of shortbread in the rUK?

 

[DotCommunist]

That's the kind of scaremongering that I keep hearing from unionists on the Labour side. But let's face it, Labour are dominated by neoliberals and are little better than the Tories. Moreover, Scotland historically returned many more Tory MPs than it does today, so the "if Scotland becomes independent, it will mean Tory rule in England forever" narrative is dishonest. If anything, I reckon a realignment will occur south of the border, meaning that the Tories will become a spent force. And about time too.

its like some collective amnesia, did everyone just forget the blair years? or is it because the tories actually call you a cunt while robbing you that makes them stand out as so much the bigger demon. Labour have been coasting by on being 'not the other cunts' for years on end now and they seem to be singing from the same songsheet as the tories now anyway! Won't reverse cuts, won't back a single solitary strike, won't cease the headlong privitisation of the NHS.

on the latter point you make I'm waiting to see what happens if scotland go yes and what amount of seats the ukip lot can get. Scots indy might open up a limited space for alternatives but whats left of labour? Respect?

 

[DotCommunist]

Has there been any word of whether an independent Scotland will raise or lower duty on sales of shortbread in the rUK?

apparently it will mean the end of Jools Hollands Hootnanny.

 

[ddraig]

Link? If they have borrowed on the back of future oil revenues, they can, if they wish, borrow some more on the back of being a govt that can raise taxes and replace said hypothecation with that.

Could be a ruse to hide debt on a balance sheet, I guess.

treelover doesn't usually bother with links or answering questions from others on their posts, just the other way round

 

[danny la rouge]

That's the kind of scaremongering that I keep hearing from unionists on the Labour side. But let's face it, Labour are dominated by neoliberals and are little better than the Tories. Moreover, Scotland historically returned many more Tory MPs than it does today, so the "if Scotland becomes independent, it will mean Tory rule in England forever" narrative is dishonest. If anything, I reckon a realignment will occur south of the border, meaning that the Tories will become a spent force. And about time too.

Furthermore, as we keep having to point out, there are only 59 Scottish MPs, not all of them Labour. (Currently: 40 Labour, 11 Lib Dems, 6 SNP, 1 Tory, 1 independent).

Labour's majorities last time round were: 179 in 1997, 167 in 2001, 66 in 2005. Without Scottish MPs each time, all of those Labour governments would have been returned comfortably.

 

[nino_savatte]

Furthermore, as we keep having to point out, there are only 59 Scottish MPs, not all of them Labour. (Currently: 40 Labour, 11 Lib Dems, 6 SNP, 1 Tory, 1 independent).

Labour's majorities last time round were: 179 in 1997, 167 in 2001, 66 in 2005. Without Scottish MPs each time, all of those Labour governments would have been returned comfortably.

Indeed. Furthermore, the Tories, who found it difficult to win outright in 2010 can only go into a tailspin from here.

 

[weltweit]

Implications if Scotland votes yes?

Well obviously the wall will take some building!

 

[nino_savatte]

its like some collective amnesia, did everyone just forget the blair years? or is it because the tories actually call you a cunt while robbing you that makes them stand out as so much the bigger demon. Labour have been coasting by on being 'not the other cunts' for years on end now and they seem to be singing from the same songsheet as the tories now anyway! Won't reverse cuts, won't back a single solitary strike, won't cease the headlong privitisation of the NHS.

on the latter point you make I'm waiting to see what happens if scotland go yes and what amount of seats the ukip lot can get. Scots indy might open up a limited space for alternatives but whats left of labour? Respect?

I don't think UKIP will poll that highly. I think, because of the Scotland independence referendum more people in England are starting to engage with politics more and are having the political debate they should have had years ago.

As for parties to the left of Labour, there's the Greens, I suppose.

 

[weltweit]

We have Scotland disliking being ruled by Westminster, whether they vote yes or no, and Westminster disliking being ruled by Brussels, whether the Tories get re-elected and have a referendum or not. It certainly seems as if large political groups, with their own governments, are not popular at the moment with their constituent parts.

 

[DotCommunist]

I don't think UKIP will poll that highly. I think, because of the Scotland independence referendum more people in England are starting to engage with politics more and are having the political debate they should have had years ago.

As for parties to the left of Labour, there's the Greens, I suppose.

truly the english proletariat is saved then

 

[futurereal]

That's the kind of scaremongering that I keep hearing from unionists on the Labour side. But let's face it, Labour are dominated by neoliberals and are little better than the Tories. Moreover, Scotland historically returned many more Tory MPs than it does today, so the "if Scotland becomes independent, it will mean Tory rule in England forever" narrative is dishonest. If anything, I reckon a realignment will occur south of the border, meaning that the Tories will become a spent force. And about time too.

Agreed regarding the Tories becoming a spent force.
If Scotland vote yes, Cameron will either be brought down by the rest of his party, or/and will see a number of Eurosceptic MP's move to UKIP.

The Tories will face the choice of fighting with UKIP over the anti-EU vote, or taking a pro-EU stance and becoming the right-of-centre representation for EU reformists. Ken Clark may get the last laugh yet.

I suspect the fighting with UKIP will be the route they take at first though, probably without Cameron in charge thanks to the Old Guard toppling him.

There does seem to be a lot of pessimism, as somebody though who is pro-EU (not without caveats of course, there is a need for a lot of reform IMO) I can see the Yes vote being beneficial to EU-reformists of both the left and right in England.

I also suspect Scotland will set of a domino effect in Europe. Catalonia, the Basque region, Brittany, Belgium, Corsica maybe Wales.

If the EU handles Scotland's admittance to the Union quickly and with little fuss, then it will act as a litmus test for the other movements in Europe.

In the longer run:

I see Britain and Frances position on the UN security council being replaced by the EU. If EU member states continue to devolve, there will be a movement towards a joint EU military force. Simple economics will dictate this to the military brass in various member states.

EU nations overseas territories either leaving and joining regional blocks in the geographic region, or becoming formal entities within the EU (for example Aruba and the Falklands).

 

[brogdale]

truly the english proletariat is saved then

If only the (English) proletariat had their own democratic party.....

 

[Pickman's model]

EU nations overseas territories either leaving and joining regional blocks in the geographic region, or becoming formal entities within the EU (for example Aruba and the Falklands).

while i have long been an advocate for unity between the three falkland islands - east, west and north (the latter currently known as aruba) - many people have made much of the distance between the two southern islands and north falkland as a reason to pooh-pooh my scheme.

 

[seventh bullet]

If only the (English) proletariat had their own democratic party.....

Bolivian arse wasps come first.

 

[Pickman's model]

Bolivian arse wasps come first.

i think you may be on the wrong thread.

 

[futurereal]

while i have long been an advocate for unity between the three falkland islands - east, west and north (the latter currently known as aruba) - many people have made much of the distance between the two southern islands and north falkland as a reason to pooh-pooh my scheme.

lol. I obviously meant between Aruba, the Falklands and the EU. Rather than the Falklands and Aruba .

 

[Pickman's model]

lol. I obviously meant between Aruba, the Falklands and the EU. Rather than the Falklands and Aruba .

i think my scheme's more sensible than yours, which is obviously preposterous

 

[seventh bullet]

i think you may be on the wrong thread.

It's from here.

 

[DotCommunist]

another implication is that scotland will field their own Eurovision Song Contest entry.

 

[Pickman's model]

i'll be exploring the possibility of political asylum in scotland should this go through

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

apparently it will mean the end of Jools Hollands Hootnanny.

**Joins YES campaign**

 

[nino_savatte]

truly the english proletariat is saved then

Ha ha. There's also Left Unity and others. You speak the language of eternal defeat.

 

[futurereal]

There's also Left Unity

Ironic.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ironic.

Yes, I know how much LU (and others) are derided on Urban but that's Urban for you.